CSGibson Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 [hv=pc=n&n=st8642h986532dct9&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=2dp2n(Ogust%20asking)p3s(Good%20hand%20good%20suit)p3nppdppp]133|200[/hv] You are in an expert partnership, lightner doubles have been discussed, though not in this specific situation. What do you lead? Edit: There seems to be some confusion as to what the bidding by east west means. 2♦ is natural and weak. 2N is an Ogust asking bid. 3♠ indicates a good hand and a good suit, but does not identify any specific outside strength (i.e., it does NOT either show or deny a feature in ♠). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rduran1216 Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 partner's sitting on 18+ with diamonds, so I make a heart lead, it'd be tough for it to cost anything, who knows, he may have AKx or AQx and we'll really hammer them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I would just lead a heart. Partner has made a penalty double with a diamond stack, don't see what this has to do with Lightner doubles - partner isn't saying 'we can beat this 3NT only if you lead your worst suit!' BTW, what does it mean when there is a lead poll and OP votes in his own poll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 BTW, what does it mean when there is a lead poll and OP votes in his own poll? In this case, it means that I've been asked my opinion by a third party. I see no reason not to add my own voice to the chorus of answers; it has no bearing on what the "right" answer is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Common for an OP to vote in his own poll. Bad form to vote early - why would you want to influence the voting? The definition of Lightner Doubles has apparently expanded. Leading dummy's suit against 3N goes back before Lightner, so he doesn't get credit for them. Partner wants a diamond lead. Sorry partner. Leading a heart is passive, sure, but our chances of setting up some heart tricks needs some very specific holdings. A spade isn't quite as passive, but we have a better chance of establishing some tricks there - which we may need to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I'd lead ♣. If pd is defeating 3 nt to my normal lead he could have considered that i may take this as lightner DBL. If u are playing lightner dbles, and if u are doubling where you previously did not take any action indicating u wanna punish them, then u either want a specific lead or u dont care what i lead and u are defeating them yourself. How does pd know my "worst suit" to tell me that he will beat 3 nt if i dont lead it ? Since pd passed 3♠ and did not bid 2♥ over 2♦, i am leading ♣. Seems like he has a ♦ stopper and quick to establish ♣ suit and believing that our only chance is ♣ lead. He is taking a shot at it with, Q xxxx Axx KQJxx or something like that. Don't take my word for it though, again, my leads suck ! :P (OP already said ♣ is not the correct lead anyway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryallen Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 It all depends upon the definition of the double. If it's Lightner then the lead has to be a ♠ but that would not be my interpretation, with partner having something like 3 outside top tricks and the ♠AQ. Or a hand where a ♠ lead does not allow the contract to make. I would not view this double as Lightner but the nature of my hand forces me to consider ♠ as an option. For the double I would expect partner to have the ♠ stopped and the small fact it is more than likely that this will be my one and only chance to lead through dummy. If I had thought this long about it at the table, I would more than likely have led a ♠. Because declarer has freely bid 3NT with the distinct possibility that none of dummies ♠ will contribute. So I don't see partner with something like ♠A and ♦KQJ109x doubling to bring the contract down. At the table I doubt I would have come up with the answer quick enough and settled for a ♥ lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted June 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 Ok. South had [hv=pc=n&s=s9haqj4dk743cak82]133|100[/hv] South made a dubious choice by passing 2♦, but having done so, he felt that this auction was going to be clear to North - this was going down if North found the correct lead, and no lead directing double of 3♠, along with the information that east had good diamonds, indicated that another choice was called for. North, of course, led a spade, claiming that the double was lightner, and that it called for a spade lead. Assign the blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted June 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 Common for an OP to vote in his own poll. Bad form to vote early - why would you want to influence the voting? How does it influence the voting? You can't see the result until after you've voted, or unless you make a specific request to see results. Posting influences voting; voting just expresses an opinion for the most part, unless it influences the posting, but one vote shouldn't have that effect. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 I'm leading a ♠ to attack the side entry. Partner has ♦ under control but may not mean she has them wired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rduran1216 Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 no blame, why didn't i lead a heart if partner has this set in his hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elianna Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 Bad form to vote early - why would you want to influence the voting? Only influences people who look at the results before voting. I know that I've been wrong about people's general habits before, but are there really many people who do that? I would think that much more common would be people who read all the comments and then vote. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 I would have led a C. Both a S and a H lead would not seem attractive to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryallen Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 In this case, it means that I've been asked my opinion by a third party. I see no reason not to add my own voice to the chorus of answers; it has no bearing on what the "right" answer is. With most of these kind of problems, the actual hand is not important, but a supplement. The answer has to be based upon the little know facts the opening lead has. What is interesting about the actual hand and the bidding, is that the double is not only unsound, but decreases the chances of actually getting the contract down. Partner will have very little in his hand and if anything a ♠K,Q or J. With the actual hand, is it a surprise that the possibility of leading ♠ become a serious option? To get this contract down, South needs a ♣ or ♥ lead, still with no guarantees if the ♠ deliver. There are no 5 tricks off the top without partners help and I don't see the double as improving those chances but decreasing them. Without the double I would have led a ♥ on the basis of giving declarer the least help and rely on the limited access he has to dummy to finesse partner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 A spade lead is absolutely horrible, partner didn't double spades when he had a chance. And why would our 5 card suit be better than our 6 card suit anyways? 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 Only influences people who look at the results before voting. I know that I've been wrong about people's general habits before, but are there really many people who do that? I would think that much more common would be people who read all the comments and then vote.You can't see the results before you vote, can you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtvesuvius Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 A spade lead is absolutely horrible, partner didn't double spades when he had a chance. And why would our 5 card suit be better than our 6 card suit anyways?Lurpoa is back with a vengeance! I don't really see why a spade would be better than an heart either, and I find it hard to blame partner for doubling here... I mean, this is not a common layout, but you're gin for 5♥, and defending 3N undoubled really seems like it's asking for a bad board. I think this double is often a trap pass of diamonds, and does not ask for any special lead... Just a lead that doesn't throw away 5 defensive tricks. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayin801 Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 A spade lead is absolutely horrible, partner didn't double spades when he had a chance. And why would our 5 card suit be better than our 6 card suit anyways? Yup, anything but a ♥ is horrid. I admit we're almost lucky that we have no diamonds on this hand, cause I would have lead one if I had it! Even with opener saying he had a good suit. That having been said, I can understand why maybe leading a diamond on this auction is a bad idea, maybe it's just too robotic of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elianna Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 You can't see the results before you vote, can you? There's a button to the side of the voting button that says show results. If you click on that you can see the results without voting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 I voted for a club lead. In general I don't think this is a lightner double. It's just "we're beating this" -- it suggests control of diamonds and a bunch of other tricks. These other tricks could just be in the form of a lot of high cards (as seems likely here, and was the case on the actual hand) or could be in the form of a running side suit. If partner just has tricks it may not matter much what I lead. But if partner has a suit of his own it's almost surely clubs. There are some hand types where we need a club lead to set (i.e. say partner has the ♦K, a major suit ace, and five good clubs missing one honor). While a heart lead is our best chance at getting down four, partner's major suit holdings on the actual hand could just as easily be the other way. However, partner having nothing in clubs given my shortage there would be quite surprising. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 20, 2011 Report Share Posted June 20, 2011 While a heart lead is our best chance at getting down four, partner's major suit holdings on the actual hand could just as easily be the other way. Nope! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 20, 2011 Report Share Posted June 20, 2011 Its seems like there are plenty of spade fragments partner can have where he isn't doubling 3♠, where we can still develop a source of tricks there. Partner isn't depending on my hand for tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 20, 2011 Report Share Posted June 20, 2011 Its seems like there are plenty of spade fragments partner can have where he isn't doubling 3♠, where we can still develop a source of tricks there. I agree with you that a spade lead is not 0 % 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted June 20, 2011 Report Share Posted June 20, 2011 hmmm... unless opener got his reply wrong, I can't believe pard has diamonds, so he has cards and some sort of strange hand. I think I would have bid 4D now.. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted June 20, 2011 Report Share Posted June 20, 2011 I voted for a club lead. In general I don't think this is a lightner double. It's just "we're beating this" -- it suggests control of diamonds and a bunch of other tricks. These other tricks could just be in the form of a lot of high cards (as seems likely here, and was the case on the actual hand) or could be in the form of a running side suit. If partner just has tricks it may not matter much what I lead. But if partner has a suit of his own it's almost surely clubs. There are some hand types where we need a club lead to set (i.e. say partner has the ♦K, a major suit ace, and five good clubs missing one honor). While a heart lead is our best chance at getting down four, partner's major suit holdings on the actual hand could just as easily be the other way. However, partner having nothing in clubs given my shortage there would be quite surprising. Agreed, except.. While a heart lead is our best chance at getting down four, partner's major suit holdings on the actual hand could just as easily be the other way. I just cant imagine a player, who has a DBL to final 3NT, and did not DBL an artificial bid at 3 level with AQJx, do u really think he may have this ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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