pclayton Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Like many, we are playing 1 major - 2N as natural (wow!) and 13+. Does anyone have a sensible response structure? We've been toying with relays. This is combined with a 12-14 NT by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 whatever you do, don't even consider relaysnowhere near enough bidding space Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 whatever you do, don't even consider relaysnowhere near enough bidding space cant agree more. Relay after a natural 2N is a bit wierd. I think if u play 2N as natural, then you should have some raise to show 4+ spt. Perhaps fit jump will do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Like many, we are playing 1 major - 2N as natural (wow!) and 13+. Does anyone have a sensible response structure? We've been toying with relays. This is combined with a 12-14 NT by the way. Couple of questions. 1) Can you have four cards in other major? 2) How many support can you have (can you have 3? Can you have 4? can you have 1?) 3) What is the top limit of your 2NT bid (starting at 13), and why don't you think a lower range might be more useful.... like no fit, good 10 to bad 12? 4) If you have a five card minor, you will be 5332 with doubleton in major and minimum hand for the 2NT bid (13-14(15). If it is 13+ unlimited, you probably need a catch all bid for opener minimum hand, 5332.. I think probably 3NT sound good for that. You will need an opener has a maximum hand 5332 (this will be what, 18-19 points), 4NT quantatative sounds right to me. And weak hands with long major just jump to 4 of the major. So this leaves balanced 15-17 hands undescribed as of yet, and then not flat hands other than weak hands (for an opening) with a long major. If responders hand is pattern defined: not 4 card support, not a singleton in partner suit, not a five card minor unless 5332 with doubleton in M, you have room for opener to not describe but ask. Here you use 3C as an asking bid, with responses like, 1M-2NT3C-> non-minimum, general slam try, hands not included are, extra long in M (transfer into suit), 18+ balance (jump to 4NT), strong 5-5 or 6-5 hands (jump in second suit). 3D =3 card support for major OR, 4432 with OM and diamonds3M = 4-4 in minors (see 4M and 3D)(better than bad 15 - see 3NT)3OM = 4-4 in Spade and clubs (better than bad 15 (see 3NT)3NT = 13-14 balanced, implied two card support for the major4C = 3 card support, weak five card club suit - better than min4D = 3 card support, weak five card diamond suit - better than min4M = 13-14 three card support (if not defined by something else)4NT = balanced 18+, after 3♣ is forcing1M-2NT3D --> transfer to 3H (if H opened, shows 6+, if spades opened, shows 4) respomder meed not complete the transfer 1M-2NT3H--> transfer to 3S (shows second suit, or extra lenght) 1M-2NT3S--> transfer to 4C 1M-2NT4C--> transfer to 4D These transfers allow opener to show, for instance, extra heart legnth and then bid his second suit. Or to issue a mild slam try by raising the trnasfer suit, or to use RKCB by rebidding 4NT (even if responder refuses transfer), or to show disproportional two suiter, by bidding second suit. Responder gets to show minimum and no fit with 3NT (when available). He gets to show fit and minimum, by ignoring transfer and jumpiing in the major. AFTER a transfer to a new suit by opener, six keycard blalckwood by opener is in play. None of this might be playable of course.. maybe a simple 3C confi is in order. 3C ask points, in pairs, staring 13-14, 15-16, 17-18, 19-20, etc. Next relay ask controls. Rosenkrantz style..... of course opener will have to know what to do with the information. ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted September 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Couple of questions (from Ben) 1) Can you have four cards in other major? Over 1♠ - yes; over 1♥, no; although I suppose responder would bypass a weak 4 card spade suit sometimes. 2) How many support can you have (can you have 3? Can you have 4? can you have 1?) Shows 2 or 3 trump; haven't considered 1444's; this is a problem pattern, as a 2/1 is supposed to show at least 5 cards in the suit. 3) What is the top limit of your 2NT bid (starting at 13), and why don't you think a lower range might be more useful.... like no fit, good 10 to bad 12? I think a 10-12 hand can be handled efficiently with 1N to start with. 4) If you have a five card minor, you will be 5332 with doubleton in major and minimum hand for the 2NT bid (13-14(15)). More than likely a weak 5 card minor. (5) If it is 13+ unlimited, you probably need a catch all bid for opener minimum hand, 5332.. I think probably 3NT sound good for that. 3N ostensibly would show a balanced 15-17 in this context. (6) You will need an opener has a maximum hand 5332 (this will be what, 18-19 points), 4NT quantatative sounds right to me. (Agree) And weak hands with long major just jump to 4 of the major (Agree). So this leaves balanced 15-17 hands undescribed as of yet, and then not flat hands other than weak hands (for an opening) with a long major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 phil, i think fred recommends that 1M/2nt show 13-15 (like goren) and, like you wrote above, it can have a 5m but only a weakish one... make a 2/1 with a good 5 card suit as for opener's rebids, he recommends opener bid 'naturally', i.e., bid another 4 card suit if it's held, rebid M with 6, 3nt with 5332 (15-16/17) or 4nt quantitative, etc... i believe he does say that the 1M/2nt bid can show 13-15 *and* 19+ (with 1M/3nt showing 16-18)... if you want to limit this hand type to 2 card support at the most, it means you have to bid the weak 5 card suit as a 2/1 (but i don't see any good reason to do this)... ben's structure looks good to me, except i didn't see any way to cater to a minimum 5332 1M opening (tho i guess it isn't necessary since you probably open that 1nt) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted September 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 (edited) Even if we break up the ranges somehow, and make 2N specifically 13-15, the sequences get a little 'bulky'. Besides, I like 1♠-3N (and similarly 1♥-3♠) as a void splinter, so I'm not giving up that. Using some of Ben's ideas (and similarly, some of Fred's concepts (after his forcing raises), and even KERI concepts), heres what I came up with (this is a work in progress - please chime in with suggestions); Example - 1♠ - 2N: 1. 3♣ - shows most minimums and balanced hands. --->3♦ asks ----->3♥ shows hearts----->3♠ shows at least 6 spades----->3N shows balanced 15-17 (1N opener = 12-14)----->4♣ shows 5 spades, 4 clubs----->4♦ shows 5 spades, 4 diamonds----->4N shows balanced 18-19 2. 3♦ shows at least 4 hearts; more than a minimum--->3♥ agrees trump and is a key card ask--->3♠ agrees spades as trump and is a key card ask--->3N shows a minimum and denies a fit 3. 3♥ shows at least 6 spades; more than a minimum--->3♠ agrees trump and is key card ask--->3N - is Serious 3N--->4 of a new suit = cue bid and denies slam interest 4. 3♠ shows at least 4 clubs and non-minimum---> 3N to play 5. 3N shows at least 4 diamonds and non-minimum 6. 4♣ / 4♦ / 4♥ = Minimum 5-5's (less than 4 controls)7. 4♠ = Minimum, good suit; at least 2 of top 3 honors The sequences after a 1♥ opener are substantially simpler, since a 4-4 fit probably isn't in the works. (I field tested this with my pard today at lunch - works well - PC) Edited September 21, 2004 by pclayton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junyi_zhu Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Like many, we are playing 1 major - 2N as natural (wow!) and 13+. Does anyone have a sensible response structure? We've been toying with relays. This is combined with a 12-14 NT by the way. 1M 2NT as natural isn't a good treatment because 2NT takes up too much space. It's extremely hard to develop especially when you play a unlimited 2NT version. With 4-4-3-2 shape, it's still best to start from 2/1, because 2/1 allows your partner to have a simple descriptive rebid at two level. For 4-3-3-3, it's often hard to describe especially when you hold 4 hearts facing a 1spade opener. Also, when you have 3 card fit with 4-4-3-2 shape, you might not be able to find a good 2/1 suit. So I feel if you really want to play 2NT to show balanced hands, you should probably guarantee 3 card support. It's often no easy to bid this kind of hands. Thus a raise in partner's opening suit followed by your 2/1 can gurantee some reasonable(can't guarantee very strong suit) 5 card suit. Also, you probably need a relay structure over 1M 2NT which I have already developed with Greg Hinze in our Hinzhu raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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