Hand evaluation question

[Chamaco]

Hi all !!

Assume you have agreed:

1) to play Precision AND

2) over 1M opening you use

- 1NT forcing and

- 2/1 GF.

 

(I am sure the system you actually play is better than this :rolleyes: , but please just skip the description of what you play to avoid the type of problem arrsen from this type of hand, just mention what you would bid using the abovementioned constraints- e.g. assume someone is pointing a gun at you forcing you to play this lousy system agreement :D )

 

Matchpoints, NS Vulnerable,

Dealer East

You are North and bidding goes

 

E S W N

p 1♠ p ?

 

You hold

♠3

♥J7

♦K98762

♣AT97

 

 

What do you bid ?

The only plausible bids allowed from system are 1NT (forcing) or pass.

No negative freebids or semipreemptive bids in minors available (again, please let's not discuss here how much other options would be good- let's just stick to the hand evaluation given only 1NT or pass as options :) ).

 

Thanks !! :)

[skorchev]

1NT!!!

 

Pass is a little crazy, I may have good minor game or score. If 1NT was NF I would pass, but when I have 1NT-F1 I prefer to use this toy.

 

 

Stefan

[whereagles]

Pass: plausible, but pard rates to have hearts, so they probably won't balance and you're stuck to 1S on the 5-1 fit. But maybe it's the 6-1 fit :rolleyes:

 

1NT: not good either. After pard's expected 2H or 2S, the diamonds are a bit weakish for a sign-off in 3D.

 

Anyway, this is matchpoints, and my feeling is that 1S just made or -1 is going to be a BAD score. Better go with the field and bid 1NT and sign-off in 3D.

[Free]

1NT, no other alternative imo...

[luke warm]

after 1nt you're gonna get 2h/2s bid, count on it.. i'd still bid 1nt

[Chamaco]

Opponents silent.

After

 

1♠:1NT(forcing)

 

Your partner bids 2♥.

Now what do you bid ?

 

ANY BID ABOVE 2 SPADES SHOWS INVITATIONAL VALUES, so you can only pass or bid 2 spades.

[whereagles]

What's this, I can't bid 3D now? Yuck :rolleyes:

 

I'm on a guess and I guess pass.

[Free]

Opponents silent.

After

 

1♠:1NT(forcing)

 

Your partner bids 2♥.

Now what do you bid ?

 

ANY BID ABOVE 2 SPADES SHOWS INVITATIONAL VALUES, so you can only pass or bid 2 spades.

So we can't bid 3♦ signoff after a forcing 1NT??? Ok, now I really think someone is pointing a gun at your head :rolleyes:

 

If this is the case, I wouldn't even start with 1NT. I'd probably pass or bid 3♦ if that's supposed to be weak (I guess not, but you never know with this system :D )

[Chamaco]

Opponents silent.

After

 

1♠:1NT(forcing)

 

Your partner bids 2♥.

Now what do you bid ?

 

ANY BID ABOVE 2 SPADES SHOWS INVITATIONAL VALUES, so you can only pass or bid 2 spades.

So we can't bid 3♦ signoff after a forcing 1NT??? Ok, now I really think someone is pointing a gun at your head :rolleyes:

 

If this is the case, I wouldn't even start with 1NT. I'd probably pass or bid 3♦ if that's supposed to be weak (I guess not, but you never know with this system :D )

 

Assume a 2/1 is absolute GF (so bidding 2m and repeating 3m is not invitational).

I know not everyone plays that way (e.g. 2/1 in a minor followed by suit rebid may be only invitational), but I prefer that way. Anyway, just assume this (the gun is still pointing :)).

Also assume that 1M-3m are NOT invitational with the minor, but conventional raises.

 

Then invitational hands with long minors have to go via 1NT forcing.

So if you can show the minor at the 2 level, it is a weak hand with long minor, but 1NT followed by 3m is invitational (otherwise you have no other way to show it)

[hrothgar]

Then invitational hands with long minors have to go via 1NT forcing.

 

So if you can show the minor at the 2 level, it is a weak hand with long minor, but 1NT followed by 3m is invitational (otherwise you have no other way to show it)

This treatment is almost unplayable.

 

When I bid a forcing NT, I am unable to predict whith certainty whether I will be able to show my minor at the two level, or alternatively, be forced to show it at the three level.

 

How am I expected to plan an intelligent auction?

[Flame]

I dont think this got much to do with hand evaluation.

The possible senarios are in order of priority.

1. play a minor (probebly diamond) partscore.

2. play 1sp.

3. play higher contract in spade. (this is if partner holds 6 of them)

4. let them play heart.

number 3 is what drives me into bidding 1nt.

If we play 2sp and not better minor over 1nt with 5332 (uncommon) then ill pass instead.

[inquiry]

I guess a question I would ask is, in your version of precision, does opener go leaping about with 14-15 hcp over a forcing 1NT. That is, if he holds

 

♠AQJxx

♥AKxx

♦x

♣Jxx

 

Will he jump to 3♥? And with

 

♠AQJ9xx

♥Kxx

♦x

♣KJx

 

will he jump to 3S?

 

The answer to this question will affect your bid, I think. And even if he will not jump around with these hands, how happy will you be to hear him rebid 2♥ over 1NT? Would you pass (hoping maybe to ruff a spade?). Would you take preference back to 2♠? Or would you try to retreat to 3♦ in a possible 6-1 or 6-0 contract missing an aweful lot of diamond spots?

 

Ok, I have to admit I am an aggressive player. But if my precision partner will leap with the hands above, I will pass. If he will not jump with those hands. I will bid 1NT and hope to land on my feet. If he bids 2C or 2D all will be well. If he bids 2S, I will let him play. If he bids 2NT, I will pass. The only response (if he isn't a leaper) that causes me any problems at all is 2H's.

 

As an aside, playing precision, have you considered playing 1NT as a lebehnsol like transfer? Not a command must bid 2C, partner with a really great hand and his own suit can show it instead. Or partner with a great club fit can refuse to bid 2C, and bid 2D instead (that is 2D by opener ACTUALLY shows a club suit). In this second case, if your suit is diamonds, you then pass 2D, if clubs, you can make a game try or signoff. This doesn't work well with 2/1 GF systems because of the wide range of the 1M opening bid, but is fun with precision. If you like, you can make all bids from 1NT to one less than Major opened transfers (the one under the major showing a great raise, direct raise weaker than normal). Opener can complete the transfer or rebid his suit with minimums. Can jump in transfer suit with fit.

 

Ben

[mikestar]

Given the system, I would pass the opening. This could be bad--if partners values are mostly outside spades 1S could get hurt while 3N or 5D comes home. But 2H hearts is less appealing than 1S when I'm doomed to play in a misfit.

[Flame]

I agree with what Ben said, if partner suppose to jump having 14-15 then i would have passed too.

[whereagles]

In classic precision:

 

1S 1NT

3H = 55 or better, based on playing tricks, not points

 

1S 1NT

3S = 6 or 7 card suit, again based on playing tricks

 

With 5S+4H and 14-15 points you bid a simple 2H.

[inquiry]

In classic precision:

 

1S 1NT

3H = 55 or better, based on playing tricks, not points

 

1S 1NT

3S = 6 or 7 card suit, again based on playing tricks

 

With 5S+4H and 14-15 points you bid a simple 2H.

Well.. if you define "classic precision" as what CC Wei invented, and described to the world in the first book ever written on precision. Then the jump shows points, and not 5-5 any. This I know because it is the first of four precision books I spent my hard earned money on (well, it is more like a pamphelet than a book, given it is so small and just thin cardboard-like cover... but it still is a book I guess).

 

Ben

[Chamaco]

In classic precision:

 

1S 1NT

3H = 55 or better, based on playing tricks, not points

 

1S 1NT

3S = 6 or 7 card suit, again based on playing tricks

 

With 5S+4H and 14-15 points you bid a simple 2H.

 

I won't argue what "classic" Precision is, but Whereagles' approach is more or less how I play it.

 

Jumpshifts to 3 level are distributional, at least 5-5, at most 51/2 losers, and put strong emphasis on values in the 2nd suit (1st suit could be so and so and we were forced to bid it by the system).

 

 

3 level Jump rebids are 5 1/2 losers with a very good suit.

[Chamaco]

As an aside, playing precision, have you considered playing 1NT as a lebehnsol like transfer? Not a command must bid 2C, partner with a really great hand and his own suit can show it instead. Or partner with a great club fit can refuse to bid 2C, and bid 2D instead (that is 2D by opener ACTUALLY shows a club suit).

Hi Ben !! ;)

 

Yes I am considering 1NT as xfer:

 

1NT = weak/strong xfer to clubs or shows a balanced hand. When the xfer is accepted, responder's 2M is NOT a weak preference (weak hand will just pass) but is GF with 3 card support.

2C= weak/strong xfer to D. After xfer acccepted, see above.

2D= good H raise or xfer to H (over 1S opening)

2H= bad H raise or good spade raise

 

and on this point here are other questions

 

Question 1

How to distinguish the invitational clkubs single suiter fronm the GF slammish single suiter (which wd also like to rebid 3 clubs)

 

Opps silent.

 

1♥:1NT(weak/strong xfer to clubs)

2♣:?

 

Now how do I distinguish between invitational and GF club single suiter ?

I do not like "faking a side 4 card suit"

 

 

 

2♦ should show GF with 5+ C and 4+ D

2♥ should show GF with 5+ C and 3+ H

2♠ should show GF with 5+ C and 4+ S

2NT should show 10-11 semibalanced (may have a 5 card clubs) ?

 

Now I have only one bid left (3C) overloaded for GF single suiters and invitational single suiters.

 

Question 2

 

How do I discriminate between BALANCED invitational hand and BALANCED GF , given that 1M:2NT is a conventional raise ?

E.g. if both bal. invitational hands and bal. GF go via the 1NT xfer (since all other bids are xfers), there will be a problem rebid.

 

One way to overcome this wd be to assume that:

 

1M:1NT = either weak/strong xfer to clubs OR balanced invitational

1M:2C= either weak/strong xfer to diams OR bal GF

 

What do you think ?

[inquiry]

I won't argue what "classic" Precision is, but Whereagles' approach is more or less how I play it.

Which is why I phrased my answer as I did. I know some precison players who leap with 14-15 at their second chance. With those guys, I pass 1S (sure, they might leap in a minor but the risk of 3S or 3H is too graeat for me). And then I went on to say if my partner doens't leap around like this, I will bid 1NT.

 

Ben

[whereagles]

You can't bid a 54 like

 

1S 1NT

3H

 

just because you have 14-15. It's bad strategy, as responder can have 7-8 points, thus commiting your side to a 3NT on 23-24 (possibly less) and a misfit.

 

Maybe your book was an embryonic version of CC Wei's precision?

[Flame]

You can't bid a 54 like

 

1S 1NT

3H

 

just because you have 14-15. It's bad strategy, as responder can have 7-8 points, thus commiting your side to a 3NT on 23-24 (possibly less) and a misfit.

 

Maybe your book was an embryonic version of CC Wei's precision?

I learn bridge with Goren's precision and wih 5-4 and 14-15 hcp we would jump.

I dont think its the best strategy yet like Ben said it exsist.

[inquiry]

Yes, flame is right. Goren's book on precision describes such rebids the same way. Thes principle in the early days of precision was that without 8 hcp (actually a good 8 at that), you simply didn't respond (some fit jumps to 4 of a major excluded of course). After playing in a few horrible 1 contracts, you quicly learn that bid to find fit first, start counting points later... but... if you are going to play precison with the random player, this is always a good guestion to get resolved early...

 

I always thoiught it funny goren did a book on precision.

 

Ben

[Free]

I think Chamaco didn't hammer enough on the fact that someone is pointing a gun at his head, tells him to play this inferior system, and most important that he didn't want a discussion about how awful this system is and what you want to change about it.

[MickyB]

I always thoiught it funny goren did a book on precision.

He didn't, Ewen did. Goren just put his name on it.

 

I think that responding without game interest is usually losing strategy playing Precision. You will play an occasional 5-1, but a fair proportion of the time passing will be best (usually playing a 6-1 at the 2 level instead of the 1 level). In return, these passes make later auctions easier, and allow opener to make penalty doubles.

[Chamaco]

I think that responding without game interest is usually losing strategy playing Precision. You will play an occasional 5-1, but a fair proportion of the time passing will be best (usually playing a 6-1 at the 2 level instead of the 1 level). In return, these passes make later auctions easier, and allow opener to make penalty doubles.

Do you refer to IMPS play or Matchpoints ?

 

At MP my (very limited) experince has ben that pasing with semiconstructive hands has led to much more losses by letting opps compete easier for the partscore or even by mising games our way.

 

But I am certainly no guru ;)