when opponents make a jump overcall of 1NT in sayc

[bill1157]

what does X mean after this auction in sayc:

 

1NT-(3♥)-X

 

Bill

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

what would X mean, if say made a simple 2H overcall?

 

If X after a 2H overcall would be T/O, than the X after 3H is also for T/O,

just the likelyhood, that it gets passed out increases.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[matmat]

I believe the most common treatment for that double in a SAYC context (2/1 as well) is takeout, and it is NOT necessarily the same as x of a 2 level bid.

 

You have to be careful with doubles of two level interference. I think there is a strong preference among experts to play those doubles as takeout as well, but penalty doubles are fairly common. If i recall correctly, penalty is the standard meaning of a 2 level double when playing Lebensohl.

 

probably best if you discuss and settle on something with your partner(s).

[helene_t]

You really have to play the double at the 3-level as t/o. Otherwise you would be stuck with many strong hands that don't have a stopper in their suit.

 

I don't know if this double is defined in SAYC but if it isn't then that ought to mean that it is t/o :)

 

Off-topic: lebensohl is not part of sayc. If you don't play lebensohl I think you have to play negative doubles at the 2-level also. It is less clear if you do play lebensohl, since then almost all gf hands and some weak hands can be bid without the negative double.

[the hog]

T/o for me at the 3 level. as I play Lebensohl xs at the 2 level are penalties. You can add Leb to SAYC, of course.

[aguahombre]

You really have to play the double at the 3-level as t/o. Otherwise you would be stuck with many strong hands that don't have a stopper in their suit.

 

Yeh, that's true. But we just double with those strong hands you are referring to, and bid naturally with unbalanced or 3NT inferentially minor oriented. With all the toys the opps have these days, we don't get many 3-bids anyway.

 

Double as take-out is better for sure; but we are willing to take the plus we get. Sometimes it is a nice one, sometimes it is not; but other times we were doomed to get to the wrong strain anyway and the little plus is just fine.

[bluecalm]

What does lebensohl have to do with anything ?

If partner open 1nt and you have QJxx xx Axxx Jxx you want to double. It doesn't matter what your 2NT bid mean.

Penalty doubles are thing of the past in those sequencies, no elite pair play it as far as I am aware and I personally don't know anybody who would like to play those doubles as penalty.

At 3level it's equally clear. dbl is just points, what else you will bid with KQx xx Axxx Kxxx ?

 

(This is about the best treatment, no idea what those doubles mean in sayc)

[JLOGIC]

Agree with Helene's posts, no idea if takeout Xs at the 3 level are SAYC but they should be, it in unplayable to have penalty Xs at that level (as opposed to the 2 level where I think penalty Xs are inferior but certainly playable).

[mtvesuvius]

Agree with Jlall here, although I have no idea what SAYC really is.

[LH2650]

You have asked a very specific question, and it has a specific answer. SAYC is a system defined by the ACBL. If a double after a 2- or 3-bid were negative, that would have to be marked on the ACBL SAYC convention card. It is not, and therefore these doubles are penalty. I am not arguing that this is the best treatment, but if your only agreement with partner is "SAYC", this is what you are playing.

 

The standard ACBL convention card has a box to check if you are playing negative doubles after partner opens 1NT.

[Lurpoa]

what does X mean after this auction in sayc:

 

1NT-(3♥)-X

 

Bill

 

 

 

♥

No doubt:

ACBL SAYC: your double is penalty.

BWS2001Defaults 2/1:

"A double of a natural two- or three-level overcall is negative, of a higher bid is for penalty."

Mind that you can easily change those defaults, and that anyway it is best to have them confirmed by the partnership.

[PCH]

what does X mean after this auction in sayc:

 

1NT-(3♥)-X

 

Bill

[wickedbid1]

You really have to play the double at the 3-level as t/o. Otherwise you would be stuck with many strong hands that don't have a stopper in their suit.

 

I don't know if this double is defined in SAYC but if it isn't then that ought to mean that it is t/o :)

 

Off-topic: lebensohl is not part of sayc. If you don't play lebensohl I think you have to play negative doubles at the 2-level also. It is less clear if you do play lebensohl, since then almost all gf hands and some weak hands can be bid without the negative double.

 

No this is not quite correct. Standard SAYC has always included pen x of interference at two level, tho this is modified by a lot of partnerships, esp. those who like "stolen bid", which wasn't around when SAYC first came out, but is pretty much standard treatment now when not playing lebensohl. In Standard Sayc, it should be noted, an auction like 1nt -- 2♥ -- 2♠ is supposed to be forcing too. 3 level minor bids also forcing.

 

Original SAYC did consider it a good idea to play x of jump overcalls at the 3 level as takeout, but commentators always urged one to discuss this with partner :)

 

Over weak nt 12-14 (10-12 did not exist) it was considered okay to play take out at both the 2 & three level, but we were advised to treat it as a penalty situation if we had not made this specific agreement.

 

That's how i remember it anyway -- been twenty yrs since i last looked at the booklets.

[mgoetze]

"stolen bid", which wasn't around when SAYC first came out, but is pretty much standard treatment now

 

You should make it clear that you are talking about LOL standard, not anything a reasonable player would play.

[gwnn]

I have no idea what SAYC really is.

SAYC defined here

[han]

Following JLOGIC my partner and I agreed last weekend to play that double is 4-5 spades (or 6+ with slam interest) and 3S shows a balanced hand without a spade stopper. To quote my partner: it is very unnatural to me to play that 3S shows spades in this auction.

[awm]

In SAYC this bid is natural which means penalty. At the three level it is likely better to play takeout.

 

There are essentially three problems that come up when opponents overcall. These are: (1) responder wants to compete but isn't sure in which suit (2) responder wants to penalize (3) responder needs to distinguish between a "to play" bid, an invitational bid, and a forcing bid at the three-level.

 

Stolen bid is a terrible method because it doesn't really help you in any of the three above situations. For example, after 1NT-(2♥) you still have no call on a competitive hand without a suit (double would be 5+♠). You still cannot penalize except by passing and hoping opener finds a double. And you are not necessarily even helped that much in distinguishing your three level calls. Certainly some club level players use "stolen bid" but I have not seen any good players use it beyond a 2♣ overcall.

 

Lebensohl helps a lot with the third problem (there are some variants like rubensohl and transfer lebensohl which have pluses and minuses and maybe better). I think either penalty or takeout doubles are playable at the two-level and have seen strong pairs using either method. My feeling is that penalty is better over a natural-ish 2♠ overcall and takeout is better over a natural-ish 2♥ overcall (basically because you're much more likely to want to compete if you might get to play at the two-level, and opener is similarly more likely to find a balancing double over 2♥ when you have the penalty hand than he is over 2♠).

[wickedbid1]

You should make it clear that you are talking about LOL standard, not anything a reasonable player would play.

 

Sorry, by "Standard", i mean "most common statistically if one has to guess", which i suppose is a very idiosyncratic usage.

 

I was not recommending stolen bid as a treatment, nor would i as i don't like it, nor would i presume that my system preferences are those which should be adopted by a reasonable player, whatever that term might mean in your corner of the universe.

 

SAYC was once a fairly stable system, but no longer. Playing on-line pick-up I can't respond Two NT to a one level opening anymore, for example, because 30-40% think it is 10-12, 30-40% think it is 13-15, 5-10% treat it as forcing unlimited, and quite a few assume Jacoby without Jacoby being on either of our profiles!

 

There are on-line guidelines in some sites recommending 10-12, but this is an infection from 2/1 (and other systems, but mostly from 2/1, esp. people who switch back and forth between 2/1 & SAYC), tho no doubt 10-12 jump to two NT will eventually become "Standard" SAYC too, [i.e. the statistically best guess (not quite yet tho, unless one is partnering somone from Eastern Europe)]. Classic Sayc, of course you know, is 13-15, like BBO Standard. Classic Sayc has no bid for 11-12 very flat hands that can't respond one over one in a four card suit, rather embarrassing for such a venerable system, but there is a price to pay for simplicity.

 

The Standard American Green Card and even more exotic Standard American Orange Card have gone the way of the Dodo, sadly.

 

By "LOL standard" I assume, mgoetze, u mean "lots of laughs standard" and not "little old lady standard", as the latter term seems to include a lot of prejudgement. Some of my best friends are LOL.

[mtvesuvius]

By "LOL standard" I assume, mgoetze, u mean "lots of laughs standard" and not "little old lady standard", as the latter term seems to include a lot of prejudgement. Some of my best friends are LOL.

I'm glad you have funny friends :)

[matmat]

wasn't around when SAYC first came out, but is pretty much standard treatment now when not playing lebensohl.

 

Is this true?

[mgoetze]

Sorry, by "Standard", i mean "most common statistically if one has to guess", which i suppose is a very idiosyncratic usage.

 

Not where I play, fortunately.

 

SAYC was once a fairly stable system, but no longer. Playing on-line pick-up I can't respond Two NT to a one level opening anymore, for example, because 30-40% think it is 10-12, 30-40% think it is 13-15, 5-10% treat it as forcing unlimited, and quite a few assume Jacoby without Jacoby being on either of our profiles!

 

Ahem... if your profile says "SAYC" then it means you are playing Jacoby 2NT. There are not many different versions of SAYC, there is only one. It is defined by the ACBL, and includes Jacoby 2NT.

http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/SP3%20(bk)%20single%20pages.pdf

 

If your profile simply said "Standard American" or "Better Minor" or whatever, that would be a different matter.

[blackshoe]

There is a specific and narrow definition of SAYC. There are people who use the term to mean something else. Humpty Dumpty lives! :lol:

 

True story: years ago, at a local club, the director introduced me to a new player, suggesting that we play together. Fine with me. New partner said, very proudly, "I play SAYC!" "Good," sez I, "then you play Jacoby 2NT". "What's that?" she asks. Played with her for two and a half years, and she never did learn Jacoby 2NT.

[wickedbid1]

Not where I play, fortunately.

 

 

 

Ahem... if your profile says "SAYC" then it means you are playing Jacoby 2NT. There are not many different versions of SAYC, there is only one. It is defined by the ACBL, and includes Jacoby 2NT.

http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/SP3%20(bk)%20single%20pages.pdf

 

If your profile simply said "Standard American" or "Better Minor" or whatever, that would be a different matter.

 

 

Yes, u r correct about what the ACBL Sayc says. My post was a good example of hasty, emotional posting because i was conflating opening one of a major & one of a minor.

 

1 cl/di -- 2nt was always, I believe, and still is, 13-15 on the Standard American Yellow Card, the Standard American Green Card and the Standard American Orange Card.

 

Yet it is true that i have had people respond "jacoby?" at this site to my one of a minor openings, and they pass 1cl-2nt sequences quite often, even when only Sayc is on their profile.

 

A large percentage of the people who play in the Relaxed Room in particular put "Sayc" on their profile, but respond to 1 of a Major with 2nt 13-15, bal., or 11-12 bal.

 

The 13-15ers can be somewhat excused because the ACBL does not teach Jacoby Two NT as part of its lessons. If u go to the "Bidding in the 21st Century Teacher Manual" at the same ACBL site (sounds promising doesn't it?) u can find examples on p. 80 of auctions 1 M - 2nt, with bal. 13-15.

 

This is how it was done on the Standard American Green Card and the Standard American Yellow Card back in the 80s. But if memory serves me correctly, the Standard American Orange Card had Jacoby 2NT and a few other of the common at that time conventions, so it could be perceived as a "step up" from the Standard American Yellow Card.

 

The SAGC evolved into Audrey Grant's Club Series (which improved it through simplification).

 

I am not sure exactly when the SAYC was revised to include Texas & Jacoby 2NT (there was still a bit of a war going on between supporters of Texas & South African Transfers) -- the Orange Card was never used by anybody really, because once people thought they had mastered the Green & the Yellow, they felt it was time to individualize their systems. Orange cards only came out at our club for individual events, where u could flip from the one standard profile to the other.... the green & yellow cards were always dog-eared, but the Orange ones pristine....

 

The REAL reason these cards came out, in my opinion, is that alerting was driving players crazy at the time -- every three months the Board of Directors was changing around what had to be alerted and what didn't (and what was being allowed to be played, and then they added ANNOUNCEMENTS too!). It was just a side benefit that the pre-filled-out cards could be used by the students too lazy to fill out a regular Convention Card at our ACBL sanctioned university club. (I was playing Polish Club at the time -- SHHH, don't report me to the Downvote Police!)

 

Sayc has been revised, and I guess the point I was trying to get to in my sadly confused way was that the SAYC genie is out of the bottle with on-line play... 1 cl/1 di -- 2nt (inv.) is destined to become "Standard" some day soon. Right now it is a coin flip, unless pard's profile is laid out so logically that one feels confident about it.

[blackshoe]

Every three months? Pull the other one.

 

Never heard of an Orange card. Haven't seen a Green card in ages. As for the Yellow card, a while back I pointed out to somebody at ACBL HQ that the then conditions of contest required a pair w/o a substantially completed convention card to play only "class A conventions", a term the convention charts no longer used. So they changed it to require they play SAYC. This, of course, sort of obligates clubs to have at least a few on hand, in case the situation comes up. One club around here has some, because when I was directing there, I bought them. I should say "had". It's been several months since I last directed at that club; I wouldn't be surprised if they've disappeared by now. At the other clubs in this area, the regulation is never enforced. <shrug> I don't know whether TDs at Sectionals or Regionals in this area keep a few on hand. I've not played in a tournament in a while. Can't speak at all to other areas, of course.

[Lurpoa]

Following JLOGIC my partner and I agreed last weekend to play that double is 4-5 spades (or 6+ with slam interest) and 3S shows a balanced hand without a spade stopper. To quote my partner: it is very unnatural to me to play that 3S shows spades in this auction.

 

Deleted rude post that's just a personal attack - Rain