Suit showing order

[Antrax]

Not in a 2/1 context, holding a hand with enough HCP to respond at the 2-level, with 5 clubs, 4 in one of the majors and 2-2 in the other suits. Partner opens 1♦, is it correct to respond 2♣ or 1M?

To save time on the followup:

if 2♣ how do we later find a 4-4 major fit if opener rebids 2NT?

if 1M how do we later untangle the suit lengths to show clubs are in fact longer than the major?

 

Thanks.

[Cyberyeti]

The answer to this depends to some extent on the strength of your no trump and 2/1s.

 

A very normal way of handling this in weak no trump acol is to play the 2/1 strong enough that any balanced hand too strong for a weak no trump is sufficient to force to game opposite one, so the 2N rebid is forcing and you can simply bid 3♥ with the 2425. This fits with a philosophy of only bid 2♣ over 1♦ with a 2425 if you're prepared to bid 2♥ over a 2♦ rebid, otherwise respond 1♥.

 

It's more awkward if you play a strong no trump and I don't profess any particular expertise in that area.

[Antrax]

Sorry, I meant 1NT is strong (15-17) and responding at the 2 level requires 10+ HCP, so in this context opener's 2NT rebid would show a balanced minimum (if I understand SA correctly)

[Lurpoa]

Not in a 2/1 context, holding a hand with enough HCP to respond at the 2-level, with 5 clubs, 4 in one of the majors and 2-2 in the other suits. Partner opens 1♦, is it correct to respond 2♣ or 1M?

To save time on the followup:

if 2♣ how do we later find a 4-4 major fit if opener rebids 2NT?

if 1M how do we later untangle the suit lengths to show clubs are in fact longer than the major?

 

Thanks.

 

♥

Taking into acount the principle of preparedness, it is good practice to always bid your longest suit first. With longer ♣ and enough strength (...) bid 2♣ and then over 2NT 3♠. So you need at least 12H to do so.

[Hanoi5]

In a not 2/1 environment where 2/1 shows 11+ it's better to show the Major at the one level. Usually you'll give up on the minor in such a situation unless your partner bids it.

 

If you still decide to bid 2♣ it is important that opener doesn't bid NT with a 4-card Major. Playing 2/1 FG I usually convene with partners that 1♦-2♣-2♦ shows at least 5 diamonds and doesn't deny Majors, bidding a Major shows 4 cards and not 5 diamonds and Nt denies holding a 4-card Major.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

In general, if you are strong enough to bid your longest suit, bid it.

Only in borderline cases dont do it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Antrax]

Thanks everyone.

 

Hanoi, how can opener show a stronger than minimum hand with a four card major like that? Say the bidding is 1♦-2♣ and opener has a 16+ hand with four spades. I'm guessing 2♠ is non-forcing, so 3♠? And then how can responder know if 3NT is the place to be?

[helene_t]

Thanks everyone.

 

Hanoi, how can opener show a stronger than minimum hand with a four card major like that? Say the bidding is 1♦-2♣ and opener has a 16+ hand with four spades. I'm guessing 2♠ is non-forcing, so 3♠? And then how can responder know if 3NT is the place to be?

No, after responder has bid at the 2-level a new suit by opener is forcing.

1♦-2♣

2♠

is even a reverse so that is certainly forcing, and in most (all?) modern bidding systems it is even a game force.

 

With a minimum and 4♠5♦, opener rebids 2♦. Whether this is forcing or not is a question of agreement (in SAYC, it is forcing), but in any case it doesn't promise extra values.

1♦-2♣

2♦-2♠

now responder shows the spades, because opener could still have four spades and just not enough values to reverse. 2♠ here is certainly forcing, and it is a game force for most partnerships.

[Antrax]

Interesting, thanks all.

[Phil]

1. Reverses by opener after a 2/1 are GF in SAYC.

 

2. Reverses by responder after a 2/1 are GF in SAYC.

 

3. Learn 2/1 :)

[Antrax]

3. I do intend to, but reading the Hardy book showed that it's not something simple I can just incorporate gradually, and I'm not feeling comfortable enough with the basics to move to playing 2/1.