the_dude Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 [hv=pc=n&s=s64haq8654da53ct2&n=sj2hj32dqt2cakq65&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=1sp2sppp]266|200[/hv] IMPS Who is getting to 4H on this hand? This hand was played by a couple of my students and I have to explain it to them today. I feel that: - South has a clear pass over 1S- North has a very close call, I can understand both pass and X- I would probably balance with 3H (still doesn't get us to 4H) but I understand pass too... Am I getting too conservative in my old age? Perhaps I've written down -1100 too many times and I'm scarred... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 I think I would bid 2♥ with South initially, but "blame" is surely too harsh here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 I would call 2♥, but I can live with pass. Balancing 3♥ seems more crucial though. The situation is different now: ops have shown limited values, ergo partner is marked with some, perhaps 6-12. The worst case scenario, doubled for a big number, is actually less likely now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 I think North can double 2♠ as a take-out. South is lacking strength to overcall at the two level I think (the ♥J would make it easier and the ♥10 automatic). Getting to game is not neccessarily correct. Two losers in spades and diamonds and a trump loser. I think N/S should be happy just to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 A 2H is fairly clearcut, at least for us. North can make an OBAR reopening double, ..., if you have agreed to play OBAR bids.I dont think South should balance with 3H, that can cost you your 1100. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 I'd overcall 2♥ with the South hand. If South passed, I'd Dbl with the north hand. They both deserve some blame imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 Perhaps I've written down -1100 too many times and I'm scarred... The game is best played with joy. Your -1100's aren't the result of excessive boldness but of not applying the techniques correctly: there's a time to be frisky and a time to be quiet and it has to do with something called "Offense-to-Defense Ratio" - ODR. I suggest you read chapter 3 of Robson/Segal's book. In your example, you could have bid 2♥, 3♣ or ♥. All these bids are safe because: 2♥ preempts LHO's responses of 1NT and 2m, so it presses him to overbid if he has some cards.3♣ and 3♥ are totally safe because opps already found a fit - hence we should have one as well. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 [hv=pc=n&s=s64haq8654da53ct2&n=sj2hj32dqt2cakq65&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=1sp2sppp]266|200[/hv] IMPS Who is getting to 4H on this hand? This hand was played by a couple of my students and I have to explain it to them today. I feel that: - South has a clear pass over 1S- North has a very close call, I can understand both pass and X- I would probably balance with 3H (still doesn't get us to 4H) but I understand pass too... Am I getting too conservative in my old age? Perhaps I've written down -1100 too many times and I'm scarred... ----------- Prefer to just bid 2h right away and get this hand off my chest. That way I wont have to bal or worry about balancing later. Ya Ican go for 1100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jh51 Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 I don't know if I am getting to 4♥, but I think I have to compete. I went to a lecture at the Louisville NABC where the speaker advised that at matchpoints, you never want to allow your opponents to play in 2 of a major after a 1M-2M auction. He said that since they have found a major suit fit, you are likely headed for a poor result if you let them play there undisterbed. And what are the possible consequences of competing? You push them to the 3 level, and they make it. No change in your score.You make your contract and you go plus instead of minus. HurrayYou go down in your contract, but less than they would have made in 2 of their major. HurrayYou go down in your contract by more than they would have made in 2 of their major. You get a 0/12 instead of 3/12.You push them to the 3 level and they go down. Hurray. At match points, he argued that competing wins far more often than passing. I read something by Larry Cohen who said tht after 1M-2M, Marty Bergen would just close his eyes and bid something because he thought letting the opponents play undisterbed was so bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 Yes - but even Bergen did to some degree respect the current colors (we red, they green). If you want to compete - it is safer after 1S, than after 2S. If you go down -2, they dont need to double you at the given colors. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcw Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 I want to bid with the South hand but would pass, mainly because I could go for a very large number.I want to pass with the North hand but would Double, I think you have to be agressive over the fit, even at IMPS and adverse vulnerability Would I bid 4♥ if partner doubled...I think yes, vulnerability is right and my 6 card suit just got huge. If partner passes 2♠ I think I'm passing just too risky at IMPS...but its close Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 I'd % 100 overcall 2♥, but even if i did not, i will not pass over 2♠. To me south gets all the blame for being too passive both times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 I went to a lecture at the Louisville NABC where the speaker advised that at matchpoints, you never want to allow your opponents to play in 2 of a major after a 1M-2M auction. He said that since they have found a major suit fit, you are likely headed for a poor result if you let them play there undisterbed. And what are the possible consequences of competing? I used to play against someone who believed much the same... In his case, the the primary consequence from competing was a lot of sand bagging. I recall once raising partner's White on Red 1♠ opening to 2♠ holding a balanced 18 count with two spades. Sure enough, the auction started 1♠ - (P) - 2♠ - (P)P - (X) That's when the fun started Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 Not overcalling 2H is a complete joke. You have a good 6 card suit and 2 and a half quick tricks. If partner starts raising you or bidding 3N or doubling them, are you really unhappy? 1S 2H 2S 4H is an easy auction (or maybe north can cuebid to create a forcing pass, whatever). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 Not overcalling 2H is a complete joke. You have a good 6 card suit and 2 and a half quick tricks. If partner starts raising you or bidding 3N or doubling them, are you really unhappy?I would call it an average 6 card suit. But as I said, I do make the 2♥ call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 If partner starts raising you or bidding 3N or doubling them, are you really unhappy?I think the reason for not overcalling is the risk of unhappiness in 2♥x. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 I think the reason for not overcalling is the risk of unhappiness in 2♥x. I cannot think of many hands that overcall 2H that are happy to play it there doubled. If that is our only metric then we would never overcall. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 I think the reason for not overcalling is the risk of unhappiness in 2♥x.For every hand where LHO has us nailed there is (by symmetry of LHO and CHO) a hand where we catch a big fit with partner. Of course, there are also nice fits from partner (Kxxx) that don't make a penalty pass for LHO. And then there are hands where both of them have a fit for us, and it's a gain to overcall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 I cannot think of many hands that overcall 2H that are happy to play it there doubled. If that is our only metric then we would never overcall. There are degrees of unhappiness. The risk of overcalling on AQ8xxx is rather greater than on AQ1098x, and the difference in the risk is greater than the difference in the potential gain. Don't misunderstand me - I think 2♥ is normal. I was only pointing out that your post about what not to worry about didn't address the things that people were actually worried about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurpoa Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 There are degrees of unhappiness. The risk of overcalling on AQ8xxx is rather greater than on AQ1098x, and the difference in the risk is greater than the difference in the potential gain. Don't misunderstand me - I think 2♥ is normal. I was only pointing out that your post about what not to worry about didn't address the things that people were actually worried about. I wouldn't blame partner if he overcall 2♥ , even if in your methods this promises a little more points...he has length to compensate. Also N could/should prebalance with 3♣ (but again that depends on your methods). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Perhaps north was consumed with the idea that if he bid, he might get doubled and go for a number (indeed, if he got doubled, he should be scared). And south, no doubt, after considering what would happen to them if they overcalled 2H, was surely mightily scared of now bidding 3H, after announcing he had a terrible hand, and the opps having easy ways to double him now. So he passed again, and they missed a vulnerable game. You cannot live your life consumed with fear. The south hand is a textbook overcall. Many normal actions risk going for a number. I would overcall 3S over a 3N opener red/white with AQx Ax Kxx Kxxxx and consider this automatic. But certainly I can and will get doubled some of the time, and those times will be very bad. That does not mean you should teach people that these cases are clear passes, that is criminal to me, this is not one of those cases where it doesn't matter much what you do in the long term and it's close. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 I would overcall 3S over a 3N opener The more immediate risk of this action is of course not going for a number, but having the director called to your table. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 dyslexic imo :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_dude Posted June 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Thanks to all for the responses - your feedback is greatly appreciated. A few thoughts: - Had S held the J or 109 of hearts, I would have overcalled 2H without much of a thought. Without them I saw it as a pass. I think I am clearly overvaluing a couple of spots .. that's a blind spot on my part. - I learned bridge by reading (and re-reading ad infinitum) everything Mike Lawrence ever wrote. I consider "Overcalls" as one of my bibles .. and by those standards the South hand is not a 2H call vul at imps. That being said .. the discussion here indicates I'm clearly wrong about this and need to update my competitive judgement. I'm not sure if Mike's stuff is just old or I just don't understand bridge :s - I think mostly about potential gain vs loss (and the likelihood of both) and probably don't give enough merit to the destructive effects of overcalls. Another blind spot... All told .. this forum is an invaluable resource for stuff like this .. thanks again! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Hi, I dont know Mike Lawrence "Overcalls", but it is a classic, and certainly worth reading.But the book was written 1979, and the agressivnes of the bidding has increased, the words"Bridge is a Bidders Game" are the expression for this. And if you say, that adding the Jack or the Ten / 9 would have made it for you translates tothe hand is just a tad to weak, so this just mean, if you see a hand, that is just a tad too weak according to Lawrence, the hand will be normal for todays standard. With kind regardsMarlowe . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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