1D - 1H - do you bid 1S or reverse into 2S?

[jules101]

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Do you bid a simple 1S, or jump shift into 2S.

 

Please explain your choice.

 

 

I'm never sure when it's right to bid 2S. Can you give me some tips for the future?

 

 

 

 

Edited to change "reverse" into "jump shift". Thanks for suggestion.

[Vampyr]

Edit - accurate wording in use.

[1eyedjack]

Personally I would bid 1S.

For me, qualifying conditions for 2S are:

1) values to GF, and

2) no interest in playing in anything other than S or D (or perhaps NT).

 

Here I agree that we almost certainly want to be in game, although it is not totally clear (partner could have 4 weakish hearts and a min. response).

But I do not want to give the impression that I have no interest in playing in Hearts. There is a good chance that I would be able to bid 3H next round, but no guarantee. Even if we do not end in Hearts I would like to bid out my shape.

 

I am generally a bit reluctant to make a jump shift rebid where the strength of my hand lies primarily in its distributional features rather than high card strength. Although obviously you need some shape if not bidding NT

[paulg]

2♠, hoping to follow up with 3♥. With the hearts and clubs switched then I'd bid a simple 1♠.

[mgoetze]

Standard is, I believe, for 1♠ to show 11-17 points, and 2♠ to show 18+. OK, so what are "points" in this context? You have 16 HCP, but that is not the whole story of your hand. There are various evaluation methods but I'm sure any reasonable one will give you at least an extra 2 points for this distribution. Note that, before your partner bid 1♥, it was more of a plus that almost all your high cards are in your long suits. So, this is a clear 2♠ for me.

 

It is worth pointing out that I would give 1♠ more consideration if my hand were, instead

[hv=pc=n&n=sakq7hdkqj976cj85]133|100[/hv]

because it is generally a good idea to proceed with caution and stay low on hands that are potentially a big misfit. But on the actual hand it is very likely that we have a fit somewhere when partner bids 1♥.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

The issue becomes a non issue, if you play 1S as forcing.

 

If you play 1S as NF, than that asnwers the question as well, with the

given hand,you want to play game, even if this means playing 4H in a 4-3 fit,

so you have to bid 2S.

 

So if you want to play at least game, than you should make the jump.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Vampyr]

The issue becomes a non issue, if you play 1S as forcing.

 

Your observation is correct; but does anyone actually play this?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

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Do you bid a simple 1S, or jump shift into 2S.

I think this hand is strong enough for a game-forcing, strong-jump-shift.

 

And, I've created some followups based on GGG ( Gnasher's Gameforce Gadget ) over a 1H Response :

 

1D - 1H

2S! - 2NT! ( asks for clarification ):

??

.. 3C! = 4s, no 3h, 5+d

.. 3D! = long Diam, no 4s, no 3h

.. 3H! = 3h, no 4s, 5+d

.. 3S! = 4s AND 3h, 5+d, ergo club shortness .. Sweet !

 

( Later, I'd be interested in Responder's hand ... if you could post it ).

[P_Marlowe]

Your observation is correct; but does anyone actually play this?

Sure - even some of the regular posters.

The question arises frequently, and I remember, that 1 or 2 stated, that

they play 1S in this auction as forcing - dont ask who, the search function

may tell, but I am not good enough using the search function, never was,

I am relying on memory.

 

Personally I believe, that if responder is strong enough to respond to 1D,

he is also strong enough to respond to 1S, but that is just me.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Vampyr]

I think this hand is strong enough for a game-forcing, strong-jump-shift.

 

And, I've created some followups based on GGG ( Gnasher's Gameforce Gadget ) over a 1H Response :

 

This is interesting, but I do not think that the OP was looking for that kind of complexity. Note the forum this thread is in.

[1eyedjack]

Yes I should have said in my original response that I would have expected a 1S rebid to be forcing (with the possible exception of responder being a passed hand). In that context there are some game-going hands that would rebid 1S, and to rebid 2S it needs to be something special. But that is a personal preference and clearly not standard given the other responses. Although I thought that forcing 1S rebid at least was by now pretty standard.

[paulg]

Although I thought that forcing 1S rebid at least was by now pretty standard.

We must live in different worlds, as I don't know anywhere that I'd expect a 1♠ rebid to be forcing. It is not passed very often in my world, but that is very different from "forcing and may conceal game-forcing values".

 

I'm not saying that playing 1♠ as forcing is wrong, just surprised that it is standard in some places.

[Hanoi5]

1♠, it's hard to find a hand for partner to pass the bid and be bad.

 

Yesterday I held:

 

♠AJ43

♥AK4

♦9

♣AKQ64

 

With this I bid 2♠ of course. Take away a king and I'd still would have bid 2♠. I think that's the limit.

 

I agree with mgoetze that the void in hearts would make 1♠ easier, but I still think 2♠ might be too much while 1♠ would not be passed when it shouldn't.

[Cyberyeti]

Your observation is correct; but does anyone actually play this?

Our arrangement is "forcing opposite a real 1♥ response" if partner has Jxx, Qxxxx, void, Jxxxx we might bid 1♥ and pass 1♠. It may not be where we want to be but may well be better than 1♦, particularly when partner only has 5.

[billw55]

Personally I like to overbid up front then relax for the rest of the auction, instead of sweating trying to find a way to show my as-yet undisclosed values. So I choose 2♠.

 

In fact I don't think it's much of an overbid anyway. This hand is really good, two excellent suits and support for partner in the third. Plus it becomes easy for partner to trot out fourth suit forcing holding five hearts, whereas he would be reluctant to do so over 1♠ with many routine hands.

[Vampyr]

Those who play 1♠ forcing, how do you play 2♠? Splinter, similar hand-type but more shapely, something else?

[Bbradley62]

Those who play 1♠ forcing, how do you play 2♠? Splinter, similar hand-type but more shapely, something else?

Like Cyberyeti, I play 1♠ is forcing for any "real" 1♥ responder; basically, all auctions with an opener and a response are forcing through 1NT. 2♠ is a game-forcing strong jump shift. I've always thought this was 100% standard.

[ggwhiz]

By partnership agreement we actually play 2♠ here as reverse values and a jump-shift game force is only at the 3 level.

 

After 2♠ we have a lebensohl toy to stop below game if necessary.

 

This hand is well worth 2♠ for us but if you reverse the ♥ and ♣ it's 1♠

[Cyberyeti]

Those who play 1♠ forcing, how do you play 2♠? Splinter, similar hand-type but more shapely, something else?

Something else.

 

For the real big hands we play a GF unbalanced 2N rebid.

 

Jumps whether 1♦-1♥-2♠ or 1♦-1♥-3♣ show 2 good 5+ card suits but not a particularly good hand. KQ10xx, x, AQJxxx, x would be the sort of thing, 5-5 if you're jumping in a lower ranking suit. The jump is NF but doesn't get passed often.

[mgoetze]

Could the posts about nonstandard treatments like 1♠ forcing please be moved to, say, the SAYC and 2/1 Forum?

[P_Marlowe]

Could the posts about nonstandard treatments like 1♠ forcing please be moved to, say, the SAYC and 2/1 Forum?

Although I agree, that some of the posts, e.g. the one suggesting to play 2S as a splinter

dont belong in the B/I section, I am just asking, why do you believe 1S NF to be standard?

 

Did you find this in a text book intended for B/I?

I did find the comment, that one could play 1S as F in a B/I book.

 

Additionnally at least one comment mentioned, that his answer was implicitly based on

the assumption, that 1S is forcing.

So raising ther point, so that the partnership is aware, that this is to be discussed

/ to be agreed belongs to the question. (*)

 

One of the biggest B/I mistakes I see on the table is jumping around to make sure, p bids

again, because quite often the player in question does not know, that bidding the suit without

the jump was already forcing.

 

(*) Just saw, that the splinter topic was voiced as question, nevertheless most

likely this should be moved to a new thread.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mike777]

1s nonforcing for me but I understand those who prefer 2s gameforce here.

 

Pard could easily have:

 

xx...AXXX...x....xxxxxx

[mgoetze]

I am just asking, why do you believe 1S NF to be standard?

 

Proof in two parts:

 

I. SAYC and BWS2001 do not even bother to mention whether this bid is forcing or not, so there must be a clear standard. It remains to establish what that standard is.

 

II. Fred Gitelman's Learn to Play Bridge, chapter "More on Bidding", section "Opener's minimum rebids" states:

Responder is allowed to pass opener's non-forcing 1♠ rebid, but he should be aware that opener could have up to 18 total points for a 1♠ rebid.

 

q.e.d.

[billw55]

The question of whether 1♠ is forcing may be interesting, and it is certainly important to be on the same page with partner about such a basic auction.

 

But on this hand - I consider it almost irrelevant. 2♠ is very descriptive and I choose it even if 1♠ is absolutely forcing.

 

Some posters point out that 1♠ can go as high as 17 or even 18 (per Fred's book). I say this hand is clearly worth more than that. At a rock bottom bare minimum, I rate AKQx as 10 points, KQJxxx as 8, and Jxx in partner's suit, with a void, as 2. That adds up to a very conservative valuation of 20 points, and realistically more like 22-23.

 

There are lots barebones responses partner can hold that make game a big favorite. Let's set a game force right away, then proceed calmly from there. But if I choose 1♠ and get a routine 1NT from partner - now what is my game forcing bid? Or my next one?

[mike777]

There are lots barebones responses partner can hold that make game a big favorite. Let's set a game force right away, then proceed calmly from there. But if I choose 1♠ and get a routine 1NT from partner - now what is my game forcing bid? Or my next one?

 

 

 

3d

 

 

 

 

1d=1h

1s=1nt