Playing the weak NT

[Hanoi5]

When you open with a weak NT (12-14) and you get doubled (penalty), is this a good runout scheme:

 

2♣ Stayman 4-4 or 4=5 in the majors

2♦ Xfer to ♥

2♥ Xfer to ♠

2♠ Xfer to ♣

2NT Xfer to ♦

XX Name your first four-card suit we'll try to stop at the first 4-3 fit

Pass Forces the redouble from opener to pass (with 10+?) or bid your 5-card minor suit (or with a weak 4333)

 

So basically everything remains the same but pass forces the redouble and redouble is some kind of Baron.

 

What if the opponents 'psych' double us? I suppose that's what the redouble is there for. Or what if after the redouble they just pull to a suit? I suppose the double would be for penalty and you could just bid your game (3NT?) with the appropriate HCP's (and hand). Anything else? What is wrong with this?

[ARTjoMS]

No.

 

You don't want transfers in this situation, especially to minor.

2♣ is too rare. You should pay more attention to 4M4m+ hands as well as looking for a possibility to stop in 2nd level with 5card minor.

[helene_t]

Against weak opponents, it is ok to play transfers. They tend to double almost only with balanced hands so they have a difficult lead. Therefore, make sure doubler is on lead. Also, they aren't able to take advantage of the extra opportunities the transfer gives them.

 

Against strong opponents, I think it's best to play everything as natural although I am not quite sure what redbl should mean.

 

The thing is, suppose responder has a weak hand with spades. If he bids a natural 2♠, advancer's options are: pass, dbl (whatever that means), 2NT (whatever that means), 3♣/♦/♥ (one suit, semipositive).

 

OTOH, if responder bids 2♥ (transfer), advancer has a lot more options: he can start with a pass and then take whatever action he would have taken over a natural 2♠ in the next round. But he can also take immediate action, or he can make a cuebid of 2♠.

[shintaro]

mmm

 

Why dont you just play a form of Houdini

 

The opener re-doubles when it gets back to them which asks partner to bid their longest suit IF WEAK If however they hold say 8+ points and balanced then leave it in

 

;)

[campboy]

Transfers are awful against anyone who knows what they are doing. Against natural runouts oppo either have a penalty double or a takeout double available, according to taste; against transfers they have both. Plus your scheme forces you to the three level if you want to play in a minor.

[Free]

- There's no need to use transfers, they delay the inevitable penalty Dbl and takes away pressure from opps who need to decide what to do. Also it's harder to defend if they don't know how strong declarer is and where he has shortness.

- It's useful to be able to play (or suggest) 1NTx. 4th hand might chicken out and bid something, 1NTx-1 may be the best possible result, opps may make defensive errors and let you make,... Opener can still run if he has a 5 card suit if he wants btw, or if he psyched.

- I used to play pass as forcing a RDbl, but I've never played 1NTxx. Either LHO or RHO ran away...

 

I find the following runout system very satisfying:

Pass = suggestion to play (may be for -1, = or with overtricks)

2X = natural, signoff

RDbl = sos, bid some suits up the line to find a playable part score (usually no 5 card suit unless perhaps 5-5)

 

It keeps the pressure high after pass and 2X. 4th seat needs to decide immediately what to do. After RDbl there's a small danger of ending up in a 3-3 fit (4M333♣ vs 4333♣) because we prefer opener bids 2♣ with a 4M333 rather than his suit, to avoid more 3-3 or 4-2 fits (4=3=3=3 vs 2=whatever ; 3=4=3=3 vs 3=2=4=4).

[straube]

We play similar to Free except we bid out with the 2-suited and redouble with the 1-suited. I think the idea is that the 2-suited are more frequent and that making a bid puts more pressure on advancer than does the redouble. Plus, if we actually want to be competing (as opposed to running), responder often needs two bids to find a fit with 2-suited hands so this gets the ball rolling. Obviously tradeoffs here.

 

We also play DONT by opener, so he can bid out with a 2-suited hand or redouble with a 1-suited hand. Less sure about the wisdom of this, but at least it's optional.

[helene_t]

the advantage of redoubling with one-suited hands and bid with 2-suited hands is that when responder has diamonds and a major, and opener has 4=4=3=2, you find the major fit. If responder had to redouble with 2-suited hands then opener would bid 2♦ catering to responder having both minors.

[Free]

We play similar to Free except we bid out with the 2-suited and redouble with the 1-suited. I think the idea is that the 2-suited are more frequent and that making a bid puts more pressure on advancer than does the redouble. Plus, if we actually want to be competing (as opposed to running), responder often needs two bids to find a fit with 2-suited hands so this gets the ball rolling. Obviously tradeoffs here.

 

We also play DONT by opener, so he can bid out with a 2-suited hand or redouble with a 1-suited hand. Less sure about the wisdom of this, but at least it's optional.

Problem with this approach is that you can't bid 4333's correctly. And I absolutely hate that most people I've encountered playing something like this conveniently forget to mention that any 2-suited bid may also be a 4333 (no offense)... <_<

 

Competing is one thing, but as long as you don't have ♠s you'll lose the part score battle quite often. :) I prefer RDbl for the balanced hands because many opps will bid a suit since they want to compete. In that case, we no longer have to look for a fit when we're weak, but we can also compete with a normal takeout Dbl. With a 5 card suit you already know the place you want to play, so fast arrival is better imo (putting absolute pressure). Not to mention a 6 card suit. Also note that with a 2-suited bid, opener will pass about half of the time, and still bid something the other half of the time. So the pressure is only real in half the cases.

[Free]

the advantage of redoubling with one-suited hands and bid with 2-suited hands is that when responder has diamonds and a major, and opener has 4=4=3=2, you find the major fit. If responder had to redouble with 2-suited hands then opener would bid 2♦ catering to responder having both minors.

After which responder will scramble further with 2♥. He knows opener must have a 3 card Major somewhere, so it's more attractive to play a 4-3 Major fit than a 4-3 minor fit.

[straube]

After which responder will scramble further with 2♥. He knows opener must have a 3 card Major somewhere, so it's more attractive to play a 4-3 Major fit than a 4-3 minor fit.

 

I think she was thinking of (for example) responder's 2443 opposite opener's 4432. Even worse would be 2434 opposite 4432.

[Gerben42]

I play:

 

Pass = I don't see a better spot

Rdbl = ♣ + 2nd suit

2♣ = Natural, or ♦ + M (Rdbl with ♥ or bid 2♦ with ♠ next or both M with or ♥ preference (bid 2♥ next)

2♦ = Natural, or both M with no preference (Rdbl next) or ♠ preference (bid 2♥ next)

 

With more brave partners we forget about the ♣ + 2nd suit and play Rdbl as to play.

[jmcw]

Agree that transfers are not the way to go.

 

I play a rescue scheme based on SWINE.

 

Pass = Forces XX, opener may forego when holding a good 5 carder.

Responder will have a weak single suited hand, or a good penalty willing to pass the XX.

 

XX = A weak hand with 2 adjacent suits ♣/♦. ♦/♥. ♥/♠. ♠/♣. Opener with relay with 2♣, but may bypass with a good 5 carder.

 

2♣ = Weak with 4♣ and 4♥ or 4333 with 4♣ or 4♥ opener will pass or bypass with a good 5 carder and await developments.

 

2♦ = Weak with 4♦ and 4♠ or 4333 with 4♦ or 4♠ opener will pass or bypass with a good 5 carder and await developments.

 

2♥ = Natural invite but NF

 

2♠ = Natural invite but NF

 

2NT = GF usually a weird hand or transfers if you prefer your choice

[olien]

I also play natural run-outs with my regular partners. We play XX is penalty, pass is neutral, and 2♣ is the catch-all run-out. The other run-out system which works pretty well is the following:

 

Direct Bid = lower of touching suits

Pass = force XX to play or show non-touching suits (which includes ♣ + ♠)

XX = forces 2♣ to show 1-suiter

 

After responder's pass, opener is allowed to pull with a minimum and a 5-card minor and is not totally obligated to XX.

 

So, written out, it works like this:

 

1NT - (X):

2♣ = ♣ + ♦

2♦ = ♦ + ♥

2♥ = ♥ + ♠

2♠ = can play either as natural (to be more preemptive) or more distributional with ♠ and ♣.

 

1NT - (X) - P* - (P)// XX - (P):

Pass = penalty

2♣ = ♣ + M

2♦ = ♦ + ♠

 

1NT - (X) - XX* - (P)// 2♣ - (P):

P = ♣

2X = natural

 

Also recommend playing 1NT - (X) - 3X as natural and preemptive.

 

Obviously there are some extra bids, but this allows for the showing of 2-suited hands. Can also invert the meanings of pass and direct bids so that non-touching suits are shown immediately so that responder can bid 2M directly over the X as natural.

 

So:

1NT - (X):

2♣ = ♣ + M

2♦ = ♦ + ♠

2M = Natural

3X = Natural preemptive

 

1NT - (X) - P* - (P)// XX - (P):

2♣ = ♣ + ♦

2♦ = ♦ + ♥

2♥ = Majors

 

And 1NT - (X) - XX can just be 1-suited with a minor

[Cascade]

We play

 

XX = strong

2any = natural

 

after pass opener is allowed to pull to a fivecard suit or redouble for doubt and responder can run.

 

We used to play 2♣ was clubs or any hand that wanted to run without a five-card suit then attempted to wriggle our way to a playable spot from there.

 

Especially since some players are happy to double a weak no trump with quite a modest hand I am very happy to have a strength showing bid.

[straube]

We play

 

XX = strong

2any = natural

 

after pass opener is allowed to pull to a fivecard suit or redouble for doubt and responder can run.

 

We used to play 2♣ was clubs or any hand that wanted to run without a five-card suit then attempted to wriggle our way to a playable spot from there.

 

Especially since some players are happy to double a weak no trump with quite a modest hand I am very happy to have a strength showing bid.

 

I'm glad to see a vote for redouble as strength. This lets opener do something intelligent if advancer bids out and keeps doubler's strength honest.

[nigel_k]

If you are going to use pass forcing XX, then IMO the best way is:

 

- Immediate suit bid is to play

- XX is spades and another

- Pass then pull the XX with non-spade two suiter

 

This handles every two suiter except you cannot differentiate between ♣/♦ and ♣/♥, but I don't think there is space to show all one and two suiters. It gives opponents minimal extra turns and allows you to get to 2♠ quickly when you have a 4-4 fit there which can make life hard for opponents.

 

Optionally, you can agree that the immediate suit bid but may be psychic so you can cause problems for them if they play takeout doubles. In that case opener cannot raise and obviously you alert and describe.

[benlessard]

Im stubborn when it come to weak Nt runout. This post POV is responder/south. So north= 1Nt opener, RHO/east= doubler, LHO= the guy you want to put pressure on.

 

Ive played 10-14 NT (12-15 vul) even with 5m in all seats wich are very frequent openings and tickle the opps into not respecting us. So we got X a lot.

 

1-- playing pass as forcing is really inferior no doubt about it. Often 1Ntx is your best contract sometimes you just dont have the points to have any chance to avoid a further X and you hold a 4333 or fit yourself in a 43 fit but got your trumps pull out quickly. Plus with some borderline hands 5/6 pts you can pass and watch LHO pull the double. While if you play pass as forcing LHO can pull with total garbage (0-2) and pass showing some pts (3+) on hands he would pull the X) also RHO (the doubler) can X the 1st rescue to show extras values (16+) and now LHO who would have normally pull the X start to like his hands enough to X if you fall into his suits. So not only you dont give them the chance to go wrong (pulling when 3-5 vs a big hand on the other side) but your also giving them a nearly free shot to show extras values wich is the last thing you want to do. These hands are frequent.

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

2- XX= one-suiter +direct= 2 suiter is inferior to direct one suiter xx= 2or 3 suiters , im strongly convinced of this. They are 4 reasons

 

{2a}- main reason is that for frequent 4432,4234 shapes a XX give you a free supplemental chance in playing into a 5-3 fit or avoiding a X. While if you bid immediatly your lowest 4 card suit you miss a chance of playing in 5-3. Bidding a 3 card suit (4432 = 2D,2443=2C) is probably superior but it give LHO (the wrong opp) a chance to act.

 

Example your 2443 broke

 

1Nt-(X)-??

 

if you bid 2D as D+higher you lose every chance of playing 2C or getting off the hook when partner has 4/5C and they dont X 2C .

 

if you bid 2C better IMO (2 or 3 suiter with 3+clubs) planning to XX to show 2 higher later it allow lho a chance to X your 2C penalty to show values (and a lead) wich help rho make a penalty X later while if it goes

 

1Nt-(X)-XX-pass

2C-

 

here RHO might bid a suit(good for us) . He might X to show penalty-ish extras value (bad for us) , or pass (forcing or NF)

 

1Nt-(X)-XX-pass

2C- (P)-P-???

 

here the opps will probably X as takeout or its going to be unclear for them (i think penalty is best with 2D takeout but ive seen most opps play take-out here).

 

So in short 3 suiter (or 4432) hands are better handled by a XX than by the bid of the lowest suit since it give RHO an extra chance to X rather than LHO extra chance to X also there are more likely to be in balancing takeout X position and lose the penalty option.

 

 

 

[2b] Its also sometimes give you an extra chance to show wich suit is longer.

 

1Nt-(X)-XX-pass

2C- (X)-???

 

XX = 2 higher suit with equal lenght or highest suit is longer.

2D=5D+4M

2H=5H+4S

 

while if you play the XX = a one suiter all your gaining is the ability to XX until opener play the hand (but at the cost giving some chance for opps to show suits/extras values) they are going to be in FP so dont expect to be off the hook too often if your broke and have only a 5 card suit.

 

 

[2c] Another advantage for XX 2/3 suiter is that it rightside more often. For 1 suiter its the same thing nearly 3/4 (unless C is the long suit) and for 2/3 suiter XX (and further XX) will rightside a lot more often than bidding the lowest suit directly in fact if they X us a 2nd time it will rightside everytime its 44 or 54 but rarely when responder is 45.

 

 

I dont give too much importance to rightside if the opps have 25+ points since most of the time they can make safe leads/trumps lead and defend near perfectly. Giving them a transfer to X to show extras values can sometimes be costly if the opps points are shared very unevenly. But when i have some pts or hope of making the contract rightsiding become significant.

 

 

[2d] One suiter delayed (by XX) allowed for the doubler to show real value and clubs without stopping a penalty X by lho.

 

1Nt-(X)-2D (long suit) -- (X) is penalty

 

1Nt-(X)-XX -(P)

2C -(P)-2D (long suit) - (X) is still be penalty

 

so the drawback is when RHO can X 2C to show extras value.

 

The basic point is everytime you make an artificial bid you pay some penalty (in the form of giving opp more options) so a XX asking for 2C you pay something because it allow LHO to pass and bid (show some pts) or to bid directly if broke for example) and it allow RHO to get a free X of a forced 2C response. I prefer to put pressure with single suiter and have the ability to wiggle with 2/3 suiter rather than do the opposite and i don't think its close at all.

 

[2e] - as a side benefit passing become 4333 or pts. Opener will XX with any 5 cards suit (for us we can easily have 5M so its useful)

 

-----------------------

IMO the best defense for LHO against a pair who runout XX to show single suiter or 2/3 suiter is

 

pass = at least 3 pts

pass and X = penalty

pass and bid 1 higher = takeout

 

bid 2C any 0-2 pts hands (ugly and esoteric but it rarely happen and when it does happen, partner got a monster that he would have overbid anyway) .

bidding 2D/2H/2S = good hand not forcing but i expect partner to raise with a minimum and fit

bidding a direct 2NT = good hand clubs not forcing but i expect partner to raise with a minimum and fit

pass and bid a suit = fair hand or crappy suit

 

All further X are penalty.

once a 2nd penalty X has been done its FP. I think its a mistake to play FP before a 2nd penalty X.

 

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[benlessard]

I agree 95% with Free very good posts, the only thing i disagree is a weak 0-4 pts (4333) why do you XX scramble with such hands ? Play that pass is some pts or 4333 instead, partner will XX with any 5 card suit instead of XX with a maximum.

 

My biggest loss is when lho pull into opener suit and he can X for penalty (since he know ive got some values for my pass) but this wont happen often especially if my pass can show only 5-6 pts). I also loose by losing the ability to play 1Nt xx when opener is maximum but honestly this should never happen against decent opps.

 

My biggest gain is since i dont XX with a poor 4333 i save 200/300 pts on these 2mX hands and I also avoid some bad scrambling (partner bidding 2C with (3235, 2353 or with 4423) i get all 8 card fit when 5332 vs 4333. Also with a borderline hand i induce LHO to pass since my pass could be a broke 4333. So i get sometime 1Ntx+1 instead of defending 2y. Another small advantage is that 1Nt-(X)-pass (show some pts)--2y the doubler will be less tempted to raise knowing hes got some pts behind him. (LHO bid become mostly an escape rather than a escape/suit) while since my pass can be broke hes sometimes going to raise and be down at the 3 level.

 

Probably its a matter of range the weaker the range the more your escape have to be precise rather than wanting to punish light doubles. If id play a 13-15 or 14-16 i would probably play like you.

[Free]

I think she was thinking of (for example) responder's 2443 opposite opener's 4432. Even worse would be 2434 opposite 4432.

I don't understand the problem, I must be missing something:

opener 4432 - responder 2443 1NT-(Dbl)-RDbl-2♥-pass

opener 4432 - responder 2434 1NT-(Dbl)-RDbl-2♥-pass

 

The other way around is also no problem:

opener 2443 - responder 4432 1NT-(Dbl)-RDbl-2♦-2♥-pass

opener 2434 - responder 4432 1NT-(Dbl)-RDbl-2♣-2♥-pass

[Vampyr]

We play

 

XX = strong

2any = natural

 

after pass opener is allowed to pull to a fivecard suit or redouble for doubt and responder can run.

 

We play most of this too. Also, after a natural club bid is doubled, responder can redouble with a 3-suited hand. Similarly, after 2♦ is doubled, responder can redouble with the majors.

 

We don't play that opener can redouble to show doubt. Why would responder suddenly find a spot to run to?

 

I think that any runout structure is OK, as long as it retains the ability to play in 1NTX.

[helene_t]

I assume that responder would show a two-suited hand with 2=2=(45) and also with (52)=4=2.

 

Suppose opener is 4=4=3=2.

 

Playing rdbl=one suit, responder would bid 2♣ with the first hand which opener corrects to 2♦. With the second hand, responder bids 2♦ which opener corrects to 2♥.

 

Playing rdbl=two suits, responder redoubles and opener bids 2♦, catering to responder having the first hand. Now you play in diamonds when a better major fit was available.

[Free]

I agree 95% with Free very good posts, the only thing i disagree is a weak 0-4 pts (4333) why do you XX scramble with such hands ? Play that pass is some pts or 4333 instead, partner will XX with any 5 card suit instead of XX with a maximum.

Well, my philosophy is the following: when we hold a 4333 with 0-4HCP, partner opens a weak 1NT and opps Dbl for penalties, then we are in serious trouble whatever we do. If you pass, or you bid something, you already know that opps can double you for at least -2 most of the time. :)

 

My runout scheme wants to put up pressure as high as possible. Bidding 2X is obviously pressuring. When responder passes, you want opener to pass 99% of the time, and reveal his psych in the rest. ;-) As a result, I prefer pass to be absolutely suggestion to play (not 2-way) so opener can pass with confidence, even if he holds a 5 card suit. Also note that hands with a 5 card (or even 6 card) suit are hands which are more likely to make 1NTx anyway because of their source of tricks, so why should opener (have to) run? If you add very weak 4333's into the pass, then you add some artificiality (which you already mentioned, gives something away). If West has values as well, he doesn't feel any pressure because he knows responder has the weak version and 1NTx will be a good score.

 

I've had bad experiences with weak 4333's after partner opens a weak NT, but it wasn't like we could do much better using another method. So it's not a really high priority imo, every system has a cost somewhere, I guess this is mine...

[Free]

I assume that responder would show a two-suited hand with 2=2=(45) and also with (52)=4=2.

 

Suppose opener is 4=4=3=2.

 

Playing rdbl=one suit, responder would bid 2♣ with the first hand which opener corrects to 2♦. With the second hand, responder bids 2♦ which opener corrects to 2♥.

 

Playing rdbl=two suits, responder redoubles and opener bids 2♦, catering to responder having the first hand. Now you play in diamonds when a better major fit was available.

Ah ok, now I understand. We don't RDbl with 5-4:

RDbl = sos, bid some suits up the line to find a playable part score (usually no 5 card suit unless perhaps 5-5)

With 5-4 responder bids his 5 card and that's just it. We might miss a 4-4 fit, but we find a playable spot immediately and put up pressure to opps. That's perhaps a tradeoff.

[gwnn]

double post