Complete this NT structure

[mgoetze]

Given a pretty standardish structure of NT responses:

 

2♣ Stayman

2♦ Transfer to hearts

2♥ Transfer to spades

2♠ Transfer to clubs

2NT Transfer to diamonds

3♥ 31(45)

3♠ 13(45)

3NT To play

4♦ Transfer to hearts

4♥ Transfer to spades

 

and that 5-card major 5332s in range are systematically opened 1NT, what would you prefer to use 3♣, 3♦ and 4♣ as?

 

(I'm interested in 14-16 but go ahead and pretend it's 15-17.)

[JLOGIC]

I am very accustomed to 3C puppet, 3D 5-5 min GF, 4C gerber. I played for a whil that 3C was 5-5 minors weak and 3D 5-5 minors GF, but I find puppet to be very frequent and useful, and 5-5 minors weak not to be (and you can sometimes survive 2N and pass partners minor with that anyways).

[Phil]

edit - saw Justin said what I was about to re: 2N

[awm]

I'd say that you have the following priorities here:

 

(1) You need a way to show an invite with 5/5 majors, assuming 2♥...3♥ is forcing.

(2) You need a way to show a strong hand with 5/5 minors (assuming transfer-other minor is shortage).

(3) You need to be able to find 5-3 major fits when responder has minor suit shortage.

 

The 5/5 minors weak hand is rare and can be handled via 2NT as others have said. There are various ways you can prioritize the three things above. I think my preference would be:

 

(1) 3♦ shows 5/5 majors invite or GF w/o slam interest. With a slam try, bid 2♥..3♥.

(2) 3♣ shows a strong hand with both minors. Over this 3♦ agrees diamonds, 3M is a cue for clubs, 3NT suggests playing there.

(3) With this hand type, bid 2♣ and then some structured follow-up. A simple option might be that 3m after stayman shows shortage w/o a known major fit.

[mgoetze]

(2) 3♣ shows a strong hand with both minors. Over this 3♦ agrees diamonds, 3M is a cue for clubs, 3NT suggests playing there.

 

Apparently I can edit the poll to change the name of the option you voted for. :)

[mgoetze]

(3) With this hand type, bid 2♣ and then some structured follow-up. A simple option might be that 3m after stayman shows shortage w/o a known major fit.

 

Hm, I dunno, I kind of like 3m natural and forcing after Stayman...

[mgoetze]

Foxx, you need to tell me what your "Other"s are so I can edit the poll before anyone else votes Other. ;)

[Foxx]

3♣ = 5-5 majors, invite

 

3♦ = interest in slam, either 4-1-4-4 or 1-4-4-4. Opener bids cheapest 4-card suit to cooperate or 3NT with a bad hand for slam.

[Vampyr]

I am very accustomed to 3C puppet, 3D 5-5 min GF, 4C gerber.

 

I play the above except that 4♣ is strong with both majors. Also I play a weak NT, so I don't mind whether 5-card Stayman is puppet or not. It is a little more flexible if it is not, I think.

 

Since one must have Gerber even though one never uses it, we have 4♠.

[Siegmund]

I've never felt a need for a convention for the 5-5 bids (2D-then-2S and 2H-then-3H works fine for the majors, and at least one of the minor hands can be handled via the 2S or 2N response.) So, I guess if you like Puppet , go ahead and use it... I would prefer 3C and 3D to show shortness, myself. Come to think of it, there isnt that much difference between the two - if you're short in one minor you must have a few cards in both majors. Question is whether to have the shortness bids promise 3361, or 4441/4450.

[CSGibson]

I've never felt a need for a convention for the 5-5 bids (2D-then-2S and 2H-then-3H works fine for the majors, and at least one of the minor hands can be handled via the 2S or 2N response.) So, I guess if you like Puppet , go ahead and use it... I would prefer 3C and 3D to show shortness, myself. Come to think of it, there isnt that much difference between the two - if you're short in one minor you must have a few cards in both majors. Question is whether to have the shortness bids promise 3361, or 4441/4450.

 

I use them to show 3/4 in the majors, a stiff in the bid minor, and a 5 card suit in the off minor. I also put 6-3-3-1 in that structure.

[Free]

3♣ puppet stayman is quite useful imo. Otherwise you have to find a way to ask for 5 card Majors after 2♣ (which is definitely possible, for example use a 3♦ rebid) but this makes things more complicated.

 

The meaning for 3♦ depends a lot on what you can do with the rest of your system. I think strong minor oriented hands are a problem in many systems so it might be a fix. If you have absolutely no idea what to do with it, I'd give multi-invite a try (invite with 6+M, M unknown, respond like after a multi-2♦ opening). This way, you can bid 1NT-2♦/♥-2M-3M as balanced slam try which gives you an entire level of cuebidding.

 

4♣, well, you can do a lot of things. I've played Gerber for so long, but I've never used it. So you might as well switch to Texas, which leaves responder the choice who gets to play 4M.

[gwnn]

I think some people forget (or don't know) that puppet can be useful if you have only one 4 card major and GF values.

 

1NT-3♣

3♦-3♥*

3NT

 

is a better auction than

 

1NT-2♣

2♥-3NT

p

 

I guess there will be some backlash now that in this case we should alert and/or prealert all our stayman auctions from now because of possible negative inferences.

[JLOGIC]

I play the above except that 4♣ is strong with both majors. Also I play a weak NT, so I don't mind whether 5-card Stayman is puppet or not. It is a little more flexible if it is not, I think.

 

Since one must have Gerber even though one never uses it, we have 4♠.

 

Hey, I agree that gerber must not be optimal and something must be better. That said, I've never seen a good use for it over 1N (for 2N definitely) if you're also playing texas. I like 4C showing hearts and 4D showing spades a lot, though I admit when I played it with one partner it gave me anxiety since I have played Texas my whole life lol. For instance strong with both majors doesn't seem that useful, since I would transfer to spades and bid 3H and have more room. Maybe 4C both majors and not slammish to ensure we rightside it, and freeing up 2H 3H as always slammish might be useful. I dunno.

 

Amusingly my partner bid gerber today and it was the first time I had seen it in a while.

[JLOGIC]

I think some people forget (or don't know) that puppet can be useful if you have only one 4 card major and GF values.

 

1NT-3♣

3♦-3♥*

3NT

 

is a better auction than

 

1NT-2♣

2♥-3NT

p

 

I guess there will be some backlash now that in this case we should alert and/or prealert all our stayman auctions from now because of possible negative inferences.

 

Some people find this debatable and indeed it is, but I am a big believer.

 

1N 3c 3D (saying nothign about 4 card majors...it doesn't need to, with 4-4 majors you bid normal stayman), compared to stayman thhen 3N:

 

-The defense knows whether the 1N opener has 4 card major or not.

-If opener shows a 4 card majors, the defense knows before it leads that opener has 4+ of that major, and responder has 4 of the other major.

-If opener does not have a 4 card major, the defense does NOT know which major dummy is going to hit with.

 

As opposed to:

 

-The defense does NOT know whether opener has 4 of the other major.

-The defense always knows before it leads what dummies 4 card major is.

 

So basically, it is possibly worse to bid 1N-2C-2D-3N than 1N-3C-3D-3M, because they know which major dummy has, but it's probably not since they won't know whether opener has 4 of the other major in the latter auction. However, it is much better to bid 1N-3C-3D-3M-3N than 1N-2C-2M-3N, since the defense knows about both majors.

 

That being said, puppet sometimes loses when they can double an artificial 3M bid, and sometimes lets the defense know that opener has a 5 card major rather than the 4+ they'd know over no stayman. IMO bidding 3C with all hands with 4M choice of games is a big winner though.

[Hanoi5]

I play 4♣ to show both Majors, no slam interest.

[lowerline]

I'd say that you have the following priorities here:

 

(1) You need a way to show an invite with 5/5 majors, assuming 2♥...3♥ is forcing.

(2) You need a way to show a strong hand with 5/5 minors (assuming transfer-other minor is shortage).

(3) You need to be able to find 5-3 major fits when responder has minor suit shortage.

 

The 5/5 minors weak hand is rare and can be handled via 2NT as others have said. There are various ways you can prioritize the three things above. I think my preference would be:

 

(1) 3♦ shows 5/5 majors invite or GF w/o slam interest. With a slam try, bid 2♥..3♥.

(2) 3♣ shows a strong hand with both minors. Over this 3♦ agrees diamonds, 3M is a cue for clubs, 3NT suggests playing there.

(3) With this hand type, bid 2♣ and then some structured follow-up. A simple option might be that 3m after stayman shows shortage w/o a known major fit.

 

Why that need for an invite with 5/5 majors? 1nt-2♣-2♦-2♠-2nt-3♥ already shows that hand...

 

Steven

[mgoetze]

Why that need for an invite with 5/5 majors? 1nt-2♣-2♦-2♠-2nt-3♥ already shows that hand...

 

While I find that a reasonable use of this sequence, I'm sure other people have different plans for it... Stayman followups can be a true minefield. And of course, using a minor-suit bid to show 5-5 majors guarantees that you can play from the NT opener's side, which is usually an advantage.

 

PS Poll edited to reflect Foxx' and Hanoi's answers.

[gwnn]

lowerline, opener will probably prefer to pass 2♠ (showing initially 5-4) sometimes when the knowledge of 5-5 across would have made him happy.

[Free]

I think some people forget (or don't know) that puppet can be useful if you have only one 4 card major and GF values.

 

1NT-3♣

3♦-3♥*

3NT

 

is a better auction than

 

1NT-2♣

2♥-3NT

p

 

I guess there will be some backlash now that in this case we should alert and/or prealert all our stayman auctions from now because of possible negative inferences.

Depends a lot on the meaning of 3♦. If it just denies a 5 card Major, then you're right. But if it promisses at least one 4 card Major (standard Puppet Stayman) you've made your auction longer with a better opportunity for opponents to Dbl for the lead, and opps know the same information about our hands in both sequences.

[gwnn]

I assumed 3♦ just denies a 5cM in my post and that responder doesn't bid 3♣ with 4-4 in majors.

[Free]

I assumed 3♦ just denies a 5cM in my post and that responder doesn't bid 3♣ with 4-4 in majors.

In that case you're absolutely right B-)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

missing from your description is, if 2C is inv.+ Stayman, or if it is Garbage / Crawling Stayman.

 

This has influences on the meaning of the seq.

 

1NT - 2D

2H - 2S

 

and the meaning of

 

1NT - 2H

2S - 3H

 

When you play Stayman French Style, i.e. with 54 in the majors you always go via Stayman, you can

you use the above sequences as showing 5-5 in the major, making a special bid to show this handtype

obsolete.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Vampyr]

That being said, puppet sometimes loses when they can double an artificial 3M bid, and sometimes lets the defense know that opener has a 5 card major rather than the 4+ they'd know over no stayman.

 

This is one reason for, if you wish to use 3♣ as 5-card Stayman, not playing puppet.

[gwnn]

Vampyr: I'm a little confused by this usage. Does "puppet" mean that you bid the major you don't have? I never heard of that but maybe it does. I just thought puppet stayman=5-card stayman.