Hand 3

[han]

Hand 3: Qxxx Kx AKQx xxx

 

1H - 2C*

2S** - 3S

4C*** - 4D

4H - ??

 

* = (GF, bal or clubs)

** = does not promise extra values

*** = 3NT would deny serious slam interest. Ace, king or shortness.

[hrothgar]

Hand 3: Qxxx Kx AKQx xxx

 

1H - 2C*

2S** - 3S

4C*** - 4D

4H - ??

 

* = (GF, bal or clubs)

** = does not promise extra values

*** = 3NT would deny serious slam interest. Ace, king or shortness.

 

My big concern is the quality of partner's trump suit

 

5♠ seems like the best way to get the right information

[Phil]

5♥

 

Also, great problem. Does partner have AKxx AQxxx xx Ax, where 7 is good, and either major suit Jack makes it great? Or, does partner have Jxxx AQJxx x AQx, where even the 5 level has issues.

 

Given that I had to try pretty hard to construct a hand where the 5 level wasn’t safe, I think it’s clear to make another move. Does RKC do the job or does something else work better? My ♥K is really the best feature I have to show right now, and hopefully partner evaluates good trump and controls properly. At the table I would probably just RKC, and thats going to be the top score I predict. Award me my 40 now please.

[mike777]

4s

 

thought about just using rkc now.

 

 

sidenote:

 

In discussing these methods wondered if it was better to play 2s is slammish not random and 2d is waiting over 2c and if 4h was a "last train" type bid here.

[Echognome]

4NT. Partner has a likely 4=5=1=3 hand or 4=5=2=2 hand. Either way, we can pitch one club loser on diamonds. We will need to get partner's hearts going, but we can ruff some hearts in our hand to do so. Right now, I just need to know how good our trumps are and I have a bid to find out.

[whereagles]

Seems like an easy 4NT now. We got all info we need to know.

[AlexJonson]

Seemed to me that 4S was a good way of showing relatively poor spades, and let partner make the next move.

[cherdano]

5♥

 

Also, great problem. Does partner have AKxx AQxxx xx Ax, where 7 is good, and either major suit Jack makes it great? Or, does partner have Jxxx AQJxx x AQx, where even the 5 level has issues.

I don't think this hand should make a serious 4♣ cue bid.

Anyway, I think RKCB is the best way forward right now, even though sometimes we may have difficulty showing our ♥K and bidding 7 confidently when that is right.

[Fluffy]

4♠

 

This one was very tough for me. Not familiar with any of the methods so had to improvise things. Preanalysis:

 

First of all the ♥K doubleton is an extremelly powerful holding, but not with 8 trumps, specially when they are this weak.

 

Partner has extras, but partner doesn't have a magical club shortness, he has honnors there. Probably both AK. This means we have overload of HCP on our short suits.

 

Decision time:

The first option to dump is 4NT, you cannot take control with poor trumps on an 8 card fit hand cos you risk facing ♠Kxxx opposite.

 

So it leaves 3 options: 5♥, 5♦ and 4♠. I think 5♦ is the poorest of all, partner has likelly shortness there, he doesn't care about our diamonds, but knowing that we have ♥K might change everything for him. If moving forward I'd bid 5♥.

 

But lets check the bidding. We have promised GF balanced values, and we don't have much extras over it. And the key point deciding this one for me: We have bid 3♠ when we could had bid 4♠ instead. This must show a decent hand. All in all I don't think we have enough to make another move goven the poor trumps. But one thing is true, at the table I would bid 5♥ and not 4♠, because there were UI implications after I bid 4♠ now I hesitated.

[Free]

4NT Blacky, I must be missing something.

[hrothgar]

 

Decision time:

The first option to dump is 4NT, you cannot take control with poor trumps on an 8 card fit hand cos you risk facing ♠Kxxx opposite.

 

So it leaves 3 options: 5♥, 5♦ and 4♠. I think 5♦ is the poorest of all, partner has likelly shortness there, he doesn't care about our diamonds, but knowing that we have ♥K might change everything for him. If moving forward I'd bid 5♥.

 

 

Am I the only person who still uses 5♠ to ask about trump quality?

[Fluffy]

I haven't used that convention succesfully ever, but perhaps that's a problem with playing with my father who likes to forget about what I am asking about and just evaluate his full hand and pass because his hearts are poor even with ♠AK.

 

Its semantics perhaps. Always show, never ask. The same way I don't cuebid opp's suit to ask for stopper, but instead I cuebid it to show GF values with no clear direction so partner decides to bid 3NT with stopper, here I don't wanna ask for suit quality, I wanna make it clear to partner that I am worried about suit quality.

[P_Marlowe]

4NT - the convention to find out how good the trump suit is.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

4NT - the convention to find out how good the trump suit is.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

This is the convention that lets you know that you only miss 1 keycard. What are you bidding next?

[inquiry]

A question to consider on this hand, since this is BBO Advanced, is would you consider 4♥ a "cue-bid" or the optional last train to clarksville. In the old BPO the rule was last train was "on" in the panel hands. There was no mention this time.

 

I will not say what my choices were here, but I gave two.... one if 4♥ was cue bid, one if it was last train. Perhaps the puzzle is to figure out what 4♥ should be.

[P_Marlowe]

This is the convention that lets you know that you only miss 1 keycard. What are you bidding next?

6S.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

I will not say what my choices were here, but I gave two.... one if 4♥ was cue bid, one if it was last train. Perhaps the puzzle is to figure out what 4♥ should be.

Why, ain't the hands open for discussion now?

 

6S.

And where is ♠J?

[han]

Hand 3: Qxxx Kx AKQx xxx

 

1H - 2C*

2S** - 3S

4C*** - 4D

4H - ??

 

* = (GF, bal or clubs)

** = does not promise extra values

*** = 3NT would deny serious slam interest. Ace, king or shortness.

 

Hanoi: 4NT

Justin: 4NT

Roger: 5D

Frances: 4S

Gonzalo: 4S

Vincent: 5D

Andy: 5H

Nigel: 5D

Fred: 4NT

Josh: 4NT

Adam: 4NT

Ben: probably 4S.

Michael: 4S

Paul: 4NT

 

Four panelists (Frances, Gonzalo, Ben and Michael) are unsure about the system and they all bid 4S. Frances puts it more strongly:

 

Frances: I don't understand how I can be playing an artificial 2C bid without artificial continuations, shouldn't 2NT have been a further relay over 2S? The problem is that partner has no idea if I am 4=2=4=3 or 4=1=2=6, so I can't expect him to evaluate his honours in any useful fashion.

She makes a good point. I had this auction at the table. My partner had a 4-5-1-3 distribution, which would be good if I had clubs but maybe not if I had diamonds. He couldn't find out about my shape, and I didn't find out about his.

 

Ben has other worries.

 

Ben: 3. In BBO advanced, last train to Clarksville is optional (although in the past BBO panel hands, Last train WAS part of the contest). It is curious that han didn’t mention what 4♥ was (LT or cue-bid). If 4♥ is last train, from a partner who ALREADY showed serious slam interest with 4♣, I would take 4♥ as looking for a heart control (which I have) and I would be honor-bound not to signoff in four spades. So I would use BLACKWOOD here. On the other hand, if 4♥ is not last train, but rather simply a cue-bid of the heart ace, I would be satisfied with a 4♠ rebid. The auction isn’t over then, and I have pretty much described my hand (balanced, enough to force to game, enough to initiate a slam try with 3♠ and participate with 4♦). I am hoping by 4♠ conveys weak spades.

The idea that 4H denies a heart control and forces you to bid past 4S if you have a heart control strikes me as odd. First of all, it seems unlikely that partner is strong enough. Secondly, if partner was that strong, couldn't he convey that message with 5C, 5D or 5S?

 

So does 4H promise a heart control? Given that partner already promised extra values I think it makes most sense that it does. None of the other panelists touch this issue.

 

Vincent: How serious is he now that he doesn't deny serious slem interest?

 

Yes, that seems to be an important question. My partner bid 4C with an attractive 4513 13-count, while I expected a bit more than that. Another worry is our weak spade suit. Perhaps we should keep the option of playing in another strain open?

 

Frances: Partner has at most 4 minor suit cards, so we have 0 or 1 minor suit losers. He has the Ace of hearts. He has a serious slam try. That seems to allow him AKxx AQxxx xx Kx or AJxx AQxxx x Axx which won't move over 4S because it's already shown a serious slam try. He doesn't have a Blackwood bid, but then he probably knows we are supposed to be controlling the auction so he might not dare. If I don't bid 4S, I would probably cue 5H, which might as a bonus side effect get us to 6H opposite Axxx AQJxxx x Ax.

 

Andy: 5H. Slam looks quite likely, but it may depend on how good partner's trumps are - AJ10x AQxxx xx Ax is a good slam, but make the trumps a bit worse and it's not. On top of that, there's the complication that we may belong in 6NT (A10xx AQJxx xx AK) or in a grand slam.

5H tells partner about the card he's probably most worried about, and makes it clear that I have the balanced hand rather than clubs. Maybe that will enable him to make a sensible decision.

Paul is not only thinking about a yet another strain, but also about a different level.

 

Paul: 4NT. There is a real danger of bidding a slam with poor trumps but I think we are locked into spades now, even if diamonds is the better trump suit. If partner shows three controls and a club void (6C) or four controls, then I might try 7D. Brogeland did something like this in the 2008 Europeans when the new suit at the seven-level was the only makeable grand slam (unfortunately his partner did not pass).

If we are locked into spades and are going past 4S, should we take control with 4NT or involve partner with an intelligent cuebid?

 

Roger: 5D. I think I'm too good to sign off but not good enough to drive to slam opposite 3 keycards. Over 5D partner will basically never bid past 5S with only 2 keycards, and will sign off with the minimums, which is fine by me--we may already be too high.

 

Nigel: 5D. The heart king is obviously a huge card but, where it matters for grand, I hope partner can infer that I hold it since something like QJxx xx AKQx Qxx would hardly be enough to go past 4S. Conversely, bidding 5H (denying both minor kings) will often make it hard for partner to bid grand. The problem hand is something like AKxx AJxxxx x Ax where he cannot be sure whether my hearts are Kx or Qx. But grand is only marginal in that case anyway and a 5H cue bid may not work any better.

The plurality does bid keycards

 

Fred: 4NT - I am not going to try to figure out why partner didn't bid Blackwood. Some players do not like to bid Blackwood (obviously I am not one of those players!). Since my hand is worth at least one more slam try and since I can't conveniently cuebid both diamonds and hearts, I think it is time to take the bull by the horns. I will apologize if partner has Axxx or Kxxx of spades and we go down in slam, but I won't be a particularly sincere apology. Bidding is not an exact science and there is no way to find out whether or not partner has the J (or 109 etc.) of spades in an otherwise slam-suitable hand.

4NT = 100 (6)

5D = 90 (3)

5H = 80 (2)

4S = 60 (4)

5S = 30 (0)

 

As 11 panelists move beyond 4S and only 4 sign off, I gave 4S a lower score than 5D or 5H.

[inquiry]

Ben: 3. In BBO advanced, last train to Clarksville is optional (although in the past BBO panel hands, Last train WAS part of the contest). It is curious that han didn’t mention what 4♥ was (LT or cue-bid). If 4♥ is last train, from a partner who ALREADY showed serious slam interest with 4♣, I would take 4♥ as looking for a heart control (which I have) and I would be honor-bound not to signoff in four spades. So I would use BLACKWOOD here. On the other hand, if 4♥ is not last train, but rather simply a cue-bid of the heart ace, I would be satisfied with a 4♠ rebid. The auction isn’t over then, and I have pretty much described my hand (balanced, enough to force to game, enough to initiate a slam try with 3♠ and participate with 4♦). I am hoping by 4♠ conveys weak spades.

The idea that 4H denies a heart control and forces you to bid past 4S if you have a heart control strikes me as odd. First of all, it seems unlikely that partner is strong enough. Secondly, if partner was that strong, couldn't he convey that message with 5C, 5D or 5S?

 

So does 4H promise a heart control? Given that partner already promised extra values I think it makes most sense that it does. None of the other panelists touch this issue.

 

Ok, so no one else worried that this 4♥ was some part of last train. Last train would seem to apply here because, 1) we have an 8 card major fit, 2) we agreed to it at the three level, 3) one partner showed slam interest and extra values (here the 4♣ bid) AND I think 3♠ itself showed extra values too). So if that follows, then 4♥ would be "last train". Now this is one of the odd last train auctions, where before heart is bid, all the other side suits have confirmed "stoppers" due to the 4♣ and 4♦ bid. Opener could just go ahead and bid 4♠ with a heart control (see fred's response " I am not going to try to figure out why partner didn't bid Blackwood." Well, I thought I knew why, he lacked a heart stopper.

 

Let's mimic Fred's improving 2/1 GF auction article where he starts with the agree trumps at the 3 level, then show the bids...

 

3♠ - 4♣

4♦ - 4♥

 

Where 4♣ showed extra values, a club control, and slam interest

4♦ is a cue-bid, and if

4♥ is LTTC, what meaning would you apply to it? Often there is an un-cuebid suit and last train promises a stopper in that suit. Here the question on this auction where 4♥ is bid after both minors have been cue-bid

1. A cue-bid of a Heart control, but in a hand with not quite enough strength to bid Blackwood. The message is that the other hand should use their judgement as to whether or not to bid Blackwood.
2. A denial of a Heart control. The message is that the other hand must bid Blackwood with a Heart control and bid 4 ♠ otherwise.
3. Neither showing nor denying a Heart control. The message here is that the 4 bidder is still interested in slam, but needs help somewhere (but both elsewheres have been cue-bid already). Their partner can choose to bid Blackwood with a Heart control or Lackwood without one.

I think the best use is item 3 from above. This is why my answer was 4NT if this was LTTC. However, if insteaed of LTTC, 4♥ has the meaing 1 above, then one has to wonder where partner thinks he needs help. If it is in spades, YOU do not have it. If the needs help in hearts, he might make another bid over 4♠. I don't see 4♠ as the sign off you attributed to it, I even noted, "On the other hand, if 4♥ is not last train, but rather simply a cue-bid of the heart ace, I would be satisfied with a 4♠ rebid. The auction isn’t over then, and I have pretty much described my hand (balanced, enough to force to game, enough to initiate a slam try with 3♠ and participate with 4♦). I am hoping by 4♠ conveys weak spades."

 

This could become an interesting discussion of what 4♥ should mean.

 

 

 

 

[Fluffy]

very dissapointing hehe, how many people think 3♠ shows extras?

[fred]

I don't normally use 2C as "clubs or balanced", but my sense is that it is not a good choice with this hand (unless perhaps if you have some very fancy agreements about what happens next).

 

If not 1S then I would respond 2D even if 2D "promised" a 5-card suit.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[inquiry]

very dissapointing hehe, how many people think 3♠ shows extras?

 

 

I do, but then, I don't play this thing where you bid 2♣ when holding 4♠ without quite a detailed followup agreement, including 2NT over 2♠ as waiting to get more info from the opener. So here I feel back onto that general principle.

[Phil]

@Fluffy - I didn't think anyone played fast arrival in this auction. I guess I was wrong when Ben indicated that he did.

 

@Frances - I agree that very specific followups are needed when 2♣ is 'clubs or balanced'. Even if you don't play something artificial, its useful for opener to know later when responder actually has clubs.

 

Regarding Ben's questions. LTTC is one of those mysterious bids, and I hope we have some good discussion.

 

In this context, Opener makes a serious 4♣ cue indicating extras and responder's 4♦ indicates possession of a card there. It seems unproductive for 4♥ to be LTTC by opener. Opener has already said, "I like my hand". Do we need another call to convey the same meaning? How many times do we need to split hairs when bidding space is so precious? 4♥ has to show a card there, since Opener can simply bid 4♠ with a hand that cannot take control, or advance past 4♠ and take control.

 

Contrast the actual auction with:

 

1♥ - 2♣

2♠ - 3♠

4♦ - ?

 

Here, LTTC makes a lot of sense. In this context it means, "I have the club control you were worried about, but I cannot move past 4♠".

[awm]

First off, I don't think LTTC should be part of BBO Advanced. The vast majority of players don't use LTTC, don't understand LTTC, etc. I don't think throwing conventions into BBO advanced that are not widely known/played in the advanced-expert bridge community is necessarily a good idea.

 

With that said, it seems to me that LTTC has two primary purposes. First, it can be used to guarantee a control which partner has denied. Second, it can be used to show extra values in a sequence where neither partner has previously expressed "serious" slam interest. I think that if neither of these is a possibility (i.e. there is no bypassed control and one partner has already shown extras) then LTTC should not apply. This is the case in the auction on this hand, where opener has already shown extras (bypassing "non-serious" 3NT) and no control has been bypassed. Here it is important to be able to show/deny a heart control. If opener were to rebid 4♠ instead of 4♥, this would clearly show concern about hearts (since he already showed serious slam interest and we have established control of the minors) and responder could bid on with a suitable heart holding. If 4♥ doesn't guarantee a heart control then I'm not sure what the difference would be between 4♥/4♠ from opener.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Hand 3: Qxxx Kx AKQx xxx

 

1H - 2C*

2S** - 3S

4C*** - 4D

4H - ??

 

* = (GF, bal or clubs)

** = does not promise extra values

*** = 3NT would deny serious slam interest. Ace, king or shortness.

 

Han further said:

" My partner ( Opener ) had a 4-5-1-3 distribution, which would be good if I had clubs but maybe not if I had diamonds. He couldn't find out about my shape, and I didn't find out about his."

 

I've posted ( previously ) my system over a 1H open and a 2/1 GF Response:

 

When Opener has 4 cards Spades, there are 2 -ways to show it : w/ or w/o "extras" ( 15+ hcp ) :

 

1) With "extras" :

1H - 2C!

2S = 4 cards Sp w/ extras ( the direct-2S rebid )

 

2) With a minimum opener:

1H - 2C!

2H! - 2S!( asks distribution; says nothing about Sp... yet )

??

.. 2NT = no 4 cards Sp

.. 3C = 4 cards Sp w/ Cl-shortness

.. 3D = 4 cards Sp w/ Diam-shortness

.. 3H = 4 cards Sp w/ Ht extra length ( 6+ cards ), ergo shortness in a minor

.. 3S = 4 5 2 2

 

Now Responder has a better grasp of how to proceed.