2NT Stayman Relay

[kgr]

...This I found in a system that is the basis for a system that I will play, but not sure if it is good:

2NT-3C Stayman Relay

- 3D=No 4cM, 4+c♦ => 3♥=♦-length?;3♠=♣-length?

- 3H=4+c♥ => 3♠=4c♠ slam-try; 3NT=4c♠; 4♣=length in minors?

- 3S=4+c♠, No 4c♥

- 3NT=No 4cM, 4+c♣

And most further bids allow to ask minor length, but it is not possible to ask 5cM with opener.

I would think that compared with puppet stayman:

This system is better for slem investigation because you can better verify the minor suits (and the complete distribution).

This system is worse for weaker hands because you cannot verify a 5cM under 3NT.

=> Is playing in 5-3 important enough to prefer Puppet Stayman or will you have enough slam going hands after opening 2NT (or rebid the stronger 2NT after multi) to prefer Stayman Relay)?

=> What is the best system after opening 2NT? (I searched 2NT on the forums, but I needed to enter at least 4 chars to search)

Thanks,

Koen

[gwnn]

Regular stayman+smolen is pretty good.

 

3♣ asking and

3♦=no 4 card major (and smolen here)

3♥=4-5

3♠=4

3NT=5 spades

 

is almost best and has the virtue of simplicity.

 

The system in the opening post seems misguided because there's no smolen and caters too much to 4-4 minor fits.

[mgoetze]

- 3H=4+c♥ => 3♠=4c♠ slam-try; 3NT=4c♠; 4♣=length in minors?

 

So when opener has hearts, I can show a slam try in spades, but not in hearts?

[JLOGIC]

The worst part of this proposed system is that you tell the opponents your minor suit lengths when youre just playing a routine 3N a large majority of the time.

[kgr]

- 3H=4+c♥ => 3♠=4c♠ slam-try; 3NT=4c♠; 4♣=length in minors?

So when opener has hearts, I can show a slam try in spades, but not in hearts?

4♦ is a slam try for ♥

[kgr]

BTW: I think that this system comes from a Dutch magazine

[benlessard]

3♣ asking and

3♦=no 4 card major (and smolen here)

3♥=4-5

3♠=4

3NT=5 spades

I agree its pretty good. This will miss 4/4 S fit when opener has both M

 

If you do not want to miss 4/4 S fit when opener has both M

 

You can use

 

3D no M or 5S

3H exactly 4H

3S exactly 4

3Nt 5H

 

So after a 3H response you can bid 3S to show/deny 4S. Instead of using for asking for 5H. The big drawback is taht that on 3Nt signoff hand you have to bid 3H

 

2Nt--3C

3D--- you have to bid 3H if you want to play 3Nt/ask for 5S. Since 3S/3NT are smolen.

 

This right side and find almost every fit (only when responder is 53?? and opener is 34?? that you miss the 5/3 S fit). But it give a lot of lead directing X.

[kgr]

Before I played following 2 systems and they felt better for no slam going hands:

1. Niemeyer with 3H and 3NT responses reversed:

2NT-3C

-3D=4cM

- - 3H=4cS; 3S=4cH

-3H=No majors

- - 3S=Transfer 3NT

- - 3NT=5cS and 4cH

-3S=5cS

-3NT=5cH

2. Romex:

-3D=no 4cH; no 5cS

- - 3H=asks 4cS

- - - 3S=4cS

- - - 3NT=no 4cS

- - 3S=5cS; 4cH

-3H=4+cH; No 4cS

- - 3S=asks 5cH

-3S=no 4cH; 5cS

-3NT=4cH; 4cS

[Free]

Regular stayman+smolen is pretty good.

 

3♣ asking and

3♦=no 4 card major (and smolen here)

3♥=4-5

3♠=4

3NT=5 spades

 

is almost best and has the virtue of simplicity.

 

The system in the opening post seems misguided because there's no smolen and caters too much to 4-4 minor fits.

How can opener know what to do with 4-4M after 2NT-3♣-3♥-3NT? Responder may be looking for a 5 card ♠ (3=2=4=4 for example) but he can also be looking for a 4 card ♠ (4=2=4=3 for example). This is supposing 2NT-3♣-3♥-3♠ asks for a 5 card ♥. It's simple but it doesn't get you to the best game...

[olien]

my regular partner and I play the following:

 

2NT-3♣:

 

3♦ = no 5M or 4♥

....then 3♥ = 4♠

............3♠ = 5♠ 4♥

 

3♥ = 4+♥, no 4♠

.....then 3♠ asks

.............3NT = 4♥

.............else = 5+♥

 

3♠ = 5♠

 

3NT = 4/4 majors

[gwnn]

How can opener know what to do with 4-4M after 2NT-3♣-3♥-3NT? Responder may be looking for a 5 card ♠ (3=2=4=4 for example) but he can also be looking for a 4 card ♠ (4=2=4=3 for example). This is supposing 2NT-3♣-3♥-3♠ asks for a 5 card ♥. It's simple but it doesn't get you to the best game...

I think 99% of such structures contain at least one case like this. Unfortunately this one is no exception.

[fromageGB]

I think 99% of such structures contain at least one case like this. Unfortunately this one is no exception.

I have a simple method that fits gwnn's 1% as a puppet replacement : there are no cases of missed major fits. Moreover, all major contracts are declared by opener, and you play in the better 4/4 fit rather than the 5/3 fit when both are available. It doesn't do anything for minors, but having found you have no major fit you still have 4C/D/H available to look for minor games/slams.

 

It is enabled simply by

1) not using red suit transfers when you are 55 or [54] in the majors,

2) having responder's bid of a major denying the possibility of a contract in that major,

3) having a 3NT bid commomly offering a major game alternative.

 

There is a special bid of 3NT showing 5 spades and 3 hearts. If you wanted to just bid 3NT you would look for a major fit first.

 

2NT 3♦ transfer to hearts denies 4 spades, but may have 3 (in case opener has a 5 card spade suit), and completion of the transfer is followed by

   3♠ = denies 3 spades

   3NT = shows 3 spades

 

2NT 3♥ transfer to spades denies more than 2 hearts.

 

So a 3♣ reply - essentially asking for a 4 card major - may conceal a 5 card major with a 4+ holding in the other major.

 

The replies to 3♣ are :

   3♦ = no 4 card major, but may have 5 spades

   3♥ = 4 or 5 hearts, denies 4 spades

   3♠ = 4 spades, denies 4 hearts

   3NT = 4/4 in both majors.

 

After 2NT 3♣ 3♦ responder bids

   3♥ = R has no 5 card major

   3♠ = R has 5 hearts

   3NT = R has 5 spades

   4♦ = 55 in the majors - pick a major

 

If responder denies a 5 card major by 3♥ now opener comes in with 3♠ if he has 5, or of course 3NT if not.

 

Over 2NT 3♣ 3♥(4 or 5, denies 4 spades) responder goes

   3♠ = R has 3 hearts, asking for the 5th

   3NT = to play (R denies 3H)

   4♥ = R has 4+ hearts

 

Over 2NT 3♣ 3NT (both majors), responder passes or transfers to a major.

 

Simple enough when you remember the principles. An initial response of 3♠ is available for what you will - eg a transfer to clubs or for the minors.

[gwnn]

pretty cool structure. you can play 3♠ forces 3NT to round it up.

 

problems with it:

-you can't show 5M/4m hands with slam interest

-there are various 3NT bids by responder so you need something for bigger hands?

-it seems very counterintuitive to me but well that's a matter of taste

[Free]

fromageGB, it's nice to rightside all contracts, but personally I don't find this as simple as you believe it is. And you create a huge disadvantage imo: you give too much information away on many frequent hands.

 

1 question: what do you do as responder with 5♠-3♥? Seems to me that you start with 3♣, but you don't find the ♠ fit after 2NT-3♣-3♥ when opener has 3♠-4♥.

EDIT: I missed the 3NT response... :rolleyes: But what do you do with such a hand when you have slam interest?

[gwnn]

1 question: what do you do as responder with 5♠-3♥?

he responds 3NT directly. Hence he needs to bid 3♣ whenever he wants to bid 3NT, which is unworkable in my opinion. I think 3♠ forces 3NT is OK.

[fromageGB]

he responds 3NT directly. Hence he needs to bid 3♣ whenever he wants to bid 3NT, which is unworkable in my opinion. I think 3♠ forces 3NT is OK.

I like this. Thanks. I agree that it is a downside giving bids that allow opposition to make lead-directing doubles and otherwise giving away information unnecessarily. But 3♠ forcing 3NT certainly helps, and it can be followed by other bids for minors.

 

When you have serious intent to find a major fit you have to give information, and that is unavoidable.

 

With regard to the question of having stronger responder hands, instead of bidding 3NT responder can bid something else as the final bid - for example, 4♣ gerber when no major fit is found.

 

The method is a bit deficient when holding a major and a minor, and I'd welcome suggestions and ideas. Currently we play transfer to a minor followed by a major is slammish 5m4M and transfer to a major followed by a minor as slammish 5M4+m, but there may be something better. At the moment we have 3♠ as transfer to clubs, but with the new 3♠ :) we can have 3♠ then 4M as the club/major hand. Anything better?

[fromageGB]

... 5♠-3♥ = 3NT But what do you do with such a hand when you have slam interest?

Very good question and I have no agreement but would like any ideas you have. All our 2NT bids and rebids are 2 point ranges, so we could say 4NT in place of 3NT perhaps? (To ace ask in spades we would transfer to spades then bid 4NT, so we have no other meaning for the 4NT bid.Perhaps 4NT = 53xx inviting slam if there is a fit ( but passable without), and 5NT = 53xx insisting on slam somewhere?

 

We haven't any meanings so far for initial responses above 4♣ so if anyone has a structure they would care to share, I am all ears. (Or eyes :D )

[Free]

The way I usually cope with 5-3M hands is to transfer. Opener can accept the transfer denying a fit, bid 3NT denying a fit but showing 5OM, or something else with fit. This forces us to play game after a transfer whenever there's a fit, which is imo acceptable (many play the other way around btw, which makes transfers GF). After the 3NT rebid by opener, Responder can transfer in both Majors, and continue slam investigation if he wants to.

[benlessard]

One of my partner Normand is probably the author of what fromageGb play. He used to call it modified Romex and its at least 12 years old (probably more). The only fit you miss like i said in my previous post is 5S/3H vs 3S/4H (its a bit dumb to use 2NT-3NT to show 5S/3H by the way)

 

He kept stuff from the original romex its 2Nt-3NT MSS D transfer and 2NT--3S = clubs/both m or transfer to 3NT

 

But keeping your methods you can use

3C-3H-3S (asking for 5H or any H raise) instead of just asking for 5H. It allow to play that 4H is 5S+3H (it will sometimes lead to a 43 fit in H when 53?? vs 24[43] but the hand with 3 trumps has a doubleton)

 

A later modification he later made is 3C-3Nt = 5H rather than 4S/4H.

 

And 3C-3H-3NT = to play

3C-3H-3S = 4S or slammish something.

 

 

It wrongside a S contract when opener is 44 and responder has 4S without 4 H and but give a bit less information on more common 3C-3Nt where they would often lead a S and a bit less lead directing X.

[gwnn]

I don't think it's dumb to use 3NT like that. I think it's really cool that they never lose any major suit fit and opener always plays it. Obviously there are some tradeoffs, but it's a nice achievement. Even if it's not theirs.

[gwnn]

non-forcing, artificial 3NT bids in your system fromageGB:

 

2NT-3NT*

 

2NT-3♦

3♥-3NT*

 

2NT-3♣

3♦-3NT*

 

All of these are NF, artificial and looking for a fit. Maybe 4♣ instead of 3NT in these sequences could mean the slam interest version, but it is a little unnerving to play in 4NT when I would have had slam interest in a suit but no slam interest in NT.

[fromageGB]

One of my partner Normand is probably the author of what fromageGb play.

 

I don't think it's dumb to use 3NT like that. I think it's really cool that they never lose any major suit fit and opener always plays it. Obviously there are some tradeoffs, but it's a nice achievement. Even if it's not theirs.

 

Hey ! It's all my own work - invented specially for this thread after seeing the opening entries here. Let's call it "fromage response to 2NT". I was trying to get it to work without having a special bid for 53xx but kept failing, so had to incorporate that immediate 3NT. But with Gwnn's addition of 3♠ transfer to 3NT it seems good to me and my system-idea-tolerant partner, and we have now permanently adopted it. After some discussion we are trying follow-ons from the transfer to 3NT as showing 5 clubs, with 4♣ being 55 in the minors for pass or correct, as we have previously regretted not having such a bid, 4♦ as ace ask in clubs, and higher bids as showing the number of aces (of 6) in a slam invitational (or better)55 in the minors, so opener can play in 4NT, 5m or 6m accordingly.

 

We are handling Mm slammish or better 2 suiters by starting with the major transfer, and that works out OK in theory.

 

So far we have not had a 2NT open, but I have every confidence in its efficacy.

 

And thank you for your contribution, Gwnn, maybe we should call it the "fromage-gwnn response to 2NT" ?

[fromageGB]

non-forcing, artificial 3NT bids in your system fromageGB:

 

2NT-3NT*

 

2NT-3♦

3♥-3NT*

 

2NT-3♣

3♦-3NT*

 

All of these are NF, artificial and looking for a fit. Maybe 4♣ instead of 3NT in these sequences could mean the slam interest version, but it is a little unnerving to play in 4NT when I would have had slam interest in a suit but no slam interest in NT.

That would be an option. We have always played 2NT 4♣ as transfer to diamonds (with follow-ons) and our current plan is to play the last of the sequences you quote, with 4♣ in place of 3NT, as Gerber.

 

However, I have no compunction about playing in 4NT if there is no fit for a slammish hand, as I am restricting that to a solid combined 30 count. If we lowered that standard I am sure we would have to have a very solid long running suit(s) to compensate.

[benlessard]

Hey ! It's all my own work - invented specially for this thread after seeing the opening entries here.

Congrats but dont try to take a patent on it, otherwise im going to look at some of my older post on the forum :)

 

I was trying to get it to work without having a special bid for 53xx but kept failing,

 

trust me there is really no need, just use

 

3C-3H-4H as 53??

 

if partner got 5H your ok, if hes got 3S your ok and if hes 42(43)

everytime you are 53(41) or 53(50) 4H in the 43 will be slighty better than 3Nt. So only when 53(32) vs 24(43) you will be in an slighty inferior 4H rather than 3Nt. Keeping 2Nt--3Nt and 2Nt--3S free for something else is much much much more efficient that a nf 53(xx) not close at all. Also note that if you bid 3Nt with a 53(14) and partner got 2S4H he will pass while ill be playing in a slightly superior 4H.

 

If you want to simply raise to 4H you bid 3S and over 3Nt you bid 4H, it allow a free lead directing X but switching the response is worse. (3S asking for 5H or 5S/3H and 4H direct to play)

[fromageGB]

Thanks, Ben, I see your point. 2NT 3♣ 3♥ then

3♠= 3 or more hearts

3NT = denies 3 hearts, to play

4♥ = 5 spades and 3 hearts

 

2NT 3♣ 3♥ 4♥ is a better way to go when responder has a shortage, I agree. I am not too happy with it being 53(32), but it does free up the immediate 3NT bid.