Story of a slam bidding hand..

[MrAce]

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This hand is played in a team game of expert players in NYC. They all play similar treatments i guess so at both tables the auction came to the point you see in diagram. The explenations of bids are given to me as;

 

2NT* 4+ fit 12+ hcp

3♣* ♣ shortness and can be any strength

3♠* Likes ♣ shortness.

 

 

At table one south bids 4NT and recieves a 5♥ response, and bids 5NT recieves a 6♦ respond and settles in 6♠

 

At the other table, south foresees the problem that if he asks, even when everything is there, he wont be sure of the 3rd round cover cards. He also knows pd is lack of ♥ control, therefore decides to skip ♦ cue and bids 4♥ showing a serious slam interest. North keycards and learns that pd has AQ ♠, A ♥ and A♦, asks specific kings and learns ♥K. And easily bids the grand.

 

I thought this was a cute hand and handled brilliantly by NS, especially South player. What do u guys think, am i missing something ?

[Cyberyeti]

What would 3N be over 3♠ ?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Interesting.

4H ostensibly denied a ♦ Ctrl.

But with the ♦KQ, North didn't hesitate to ask for key cards.

I bet he was surprised to hear partner had the ♦A .

 

I wonder if he would have asked if he were missing the ♦K ? ( but held points elsewhere for his opening... say the ♣K ). He probably would sign-off in game and miss a makable small slam.

[aguahombre]

What would 3N be over 3♠ ?

Yep. That would be the perfect situation for 3NT by South to show significant extra values he previously had not been afforded the opportunity to express. North cannot envision any such hand without heart controls, and can just Wood to the grand.

 

That does not take away from the thoughtfulness of the South player who, without 3NT available, foresaw his problem and allowed North to be in charge by cueing hearts.

 

By the way: I know Cyberyeti already knows this. Was just clarifying for other readers who might not be aware of the possible use of 3NT in this type of auction. :blink:

Edited May 27, 2011 by aguahombre

[Cyberyeti]

Interesting.

4H ostensibly denied a ♦ Ctrl.

But with the ♦KQ, North didn't hesitate to ask for key cards.

I bet he was surprised to hear partner had the ♦A .

 

I wonder if he would have asked if he were missing the ♦K ? ( but held points elsewhere for his opening... say the ♣K ). He probably would sign-off in game and miss a makable small slam.

I think the point is that South knew he was having another go if N just bid 4♠, but he was giving his partner the chance to ask first as that might be the easiest way of finding the grand.

[cherdano]

When you can show your complete hand by replying to RKCB, it's a good idea to get partner to ask RKCB!

[Phil]

When you can show your complete hand by replying to RKCB, it's a good idea to get partner to ask RKCB!

 

Or even devise a system where you 'respond' to RKC without partner asking.

 

Why is North bidding 3♠? Isn't 3♦ obvious?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 

Why is North bidding 3♠? Isn't 3♦ obvious?

Very good question !

[gnasher]

So the point is that you shouldn't ask for aces if you don't know what to do with the answer? I'm sure everyone used to understand that, but I agree that many players today seem not to know it.

[xxhong]

I would bid 2D with north's hand. The rest is usually simple:

1S 2D

2H 2S

3D(now the pattern is clear) 3S(4 or more spades)

4C(serious slam try) 4D(cue)

4H(cue) 4N(RKC)

 

If you go 4N after 4D, it is also not too difficult for north to know how valuable his DKQ is after south tell him they have all KC and HK.

Usually, 2/1 is a better choice than J2NT when you hold a reasonable side suit, because 2/1 often offers your more information at low levels.

 

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This hand is played in a team game of expert players in NYC. They all play similar treatments i guess so at both tables the auction came to the point you see in diagram. The explenations of bids are given to me as;

 

2NT* 4+ fit 12+ hcp

3♣* ♣ shortness and can be any strength

3♠* Likes ♣ shortness.

 

 

At table one south bids 4NT and recieves a 5♥ response, and bids 5NT recieves a 6♦ respond and settles in 6♠

 

At the other table, south foresees the problem that if he asks, even when everything is there, he wont be sure of the 3rd round cover cards. He also knows pd is lack of ♥ control, therefore decides to skip ♦ cue and bids 4♥ showing a serious slam interest. North keycards and learns that pd has AQ ♠, A ♥ and A♦, asks specific kings and learns ♥K. And easily bids the grand.

 

I thought this was a cute hand and handled brilliantly by NS, especially South player. What do u guys think, am i missing something ?

[kenrexford]

I also would start with 2♦ (because I hate Jacoby 2NT and reserve that for hands with all primes outside), but my approach would not be pattern but rather controls:

 

1♠-2♦

2♥-2♠(spades agreed)

3♣(club honor or shortness control, two of the top three spades)-3♦(two of the top three diamonds)

3♥(two of the top three hearts)-3♠(we have all three top spades)

3NT(contextually serious)-4♣(complimentary club control)

4♦(one of the top three diamonds)

 

At this point, South is known by North to have AQxxx or better in diamonds, two top hearts, the diamond Ace, the club stiff or singleton, and serious slak interest. Because 4♦ diurectly, instead of 3NT...4♦, would have also shown much of this, Opener is known to really like his hand.

 

The partnership is also known to have all three top spades and all three top diamonds.

 

In clubs, the combination COULD be stiff-opposite-King from Opener's perspective, but Responder knows that the partnership has both first and second-round control in clubs. With the known 5-4 or better in the majors, Responder also knows that no minor losers are possible. No spade losers are likely (especially looking at the 10). Only one heart loser is possible.

 

The sole question is the quality of Opener's hearts. RKCB solves that easily.

[MrAce]

I am not advocating that their methods are good (or bad for that matter) But the cool thing about it was both NS were using the same methods upto 3♠. 3♠ bid was explained to me as "likes ♣ shortness" so perhaps 3♦ insstead of 3♠ would be asking something else i suppose, idk.

 

As for the question what 3 NT would be, i think it would be "unserious 3NT" since 4♥ was explained as "serious cue"

[JLOGIC]

I am not advocating the start of:

 

1S 2N

3C 3S

4N

 

However, this should have been fine. After the answer, 5H, 5N, 6D, south has an easy bid: 6H. Now north will bid 7 with both the DQ and the doubleton heart as what else could south have besides the HK? Without the HK, south would just bid 6S, since with the HK and DKQ, north can bid 7 himself over 5N. 6S was by far the worst bid of the auction.

 

People rip on keycard a ton but it is a very powerful convention, especially for bidding grands. I never seem to see expert pairs cuebidding their way delicately to grands, this leaves a huge margin of error and interpretation for everything.

 

When you can show your complete hand by replying to RKCB, it's a good idea to get partner to ask RKCB!

 

If your hand is all keycards, you can often show your hand by bidding keycard as well. For instance, 4N then 5N, you have now described your A A A and the spade queen. If south had bid 6H, the only thing left for him to have for that bid would be the HK. I suppose it's possible he has AKQ of hearts and is just looking for 7 opposite the DQ, so it is not 100 % clear, but with that hand he can probably bid 7 himself and hope for the best after partner says he "likes club shortness." His exact shape would be pretty unknown, but it would be also if answering keycard. To me there is not a huge difference with that sequence and answering keycard then showing the HK.

 

Obv there are better starts to the auction but I imagine most auctions would end with south bidding keycard before bidding the grand, ie:

 

1S 2N

3C 3D

3H 3S

3N 4C

4N 5S

5N 6D

6H 7S

 

Where 6D now shows the KQ of diamonds so 6H is clearly just looking for 3rd round heart control.

[MrAce]

I am not advocating the start of:

 

1S 2N

3C 3S

4N

 

However, this should have been fine. After the answer, 5H, 5N, 6D, south has an easy bid: 6H....

 

Justin, when they gave me this hand, i bid EXACTLY as you suggested, i bid 4 NT and then 5 nt and 6♥ over 6♦, and i am told that then pd bids 6♠, i said "then i pass". I am told 6♥ here asks ♥K, since 6♦ did not refuse ♥K. Which i thought it did because with both red Kings i wld think N should bid 7 after 5 NT.

 

Also here is a treatment that i like for specific Kings, and this works very good when trump is ♠

 

5NT---6♣ = ♣K or other 2 kings, 6♦=♦K or other 2kings, 6♥ = ♥K or other 2 kings

[kenrexford]

I never seem to see expert pairs cuebidding their way delicately to grands, this leaves a huge margin of error and interpretation for everything.

 

I agree with your post, but I thought this was intriguing. The fact that many experts still seem to not agree on principles for cuebidding that avert any reasonable mergin of error and where interpretation is not difficult disappoints me immensely.

[gnasher]

People rip on keycard a ton but it is a very powerful convention, especially for bidding grands. I never seem to see expert pairs cuebidding their way delicately to grands, this leaves a huge margin of error and interpretation for everything.

 

The cirticism is (or should be) of the misuse of Keycard, rather than the convention itself. If you cue-bid first- and second-round controls indiscriminately, Keycard is often essential just to establish that you have sufficient key cards.

 

What your expert pairs should be doing is delicately cue-bidding to establish that they have the wherewithal to make a slam, then indelicately bidding Keycard to confirm that the opponents don't have the wherewithal to beat it.

[Phil]

I am not advocating the start of:

People rip on keycard a ton but it is a very powerful convention, especially for bidding grands. I never seem to see expert pairs cuebidding their way delicately to grands, this leaves a huge margin of error and interpretation for everything.

 

Is this a function of expert pairs being too preoccupied with other things to make this a priority?

 

Or is it because there just isn't a consensus of what a high level cue bid shows or denies?

[Cyberyeti]

Yep. That would be the perfect situation for 3NT by South to show significant extra values he previously had not been afforded the opportunity to express. North cannot envision any such hand without heart controls, and can just Wood to the grand.

 

That does not take away from the thoughtfulness of the South player who, without 3NT available, foresaw his problem and allowed North to be in charge by cueing hearts.

 

By the way: I know Cyberyeti already knows this. Was just clarifying for other readers who might not be aware of the possible use of 3NT in this type of auction. :blink:

By the way, while I was reasonably sure what most US experts would use 3N for, I don't.

 

3N is the most expensive cue for us and here shows extra values and a heart control which is also useful :)

[gnasher]

Is this a function of expert pairs being too preoccupied with other things to make this a priority?

 

Or is it because there just isn't a consensus of what a high level cue bid shows or denies?

 

Maybe it's partly because they no longer have 5NT available as GSF? If 4NT is your last chance to check for a trump loser, that's a good reason to bid it.

[han]

What do you think 5NT is in a cuebidding auction? We play it as "no further cuebids but still interested in 7", which means more than minimal strength in the trump suit. If I have bid the trump suit and partner has supported, then my 5NT says I have 2+ top honors there, and partner's 5NT shows he has 1+ top honor there.

 

Well, that's in theory. In practice we always bid blackwood. ;)

[JLOGIC]

I agree with your post, but I thought this was intriguing. The fact that many experts still seem to not agree on principles for cuebidding that avert any reasonable mergin of error and where interpretation is not difficult disappoints me immensely.

 

Maybe they should read your book ;). Seriously though Ken, how often do you watch vugraph or read the world championship book or whatever and see pairs just cuebid to grand? Other than those italians that don't play keycard (I think they play something called turbo though?) it seems extremely rare to me.

 

The cirticism is (or should be) of the misuse of Keycard, rather than the convention itself. If you cue-bid first- and second-round controls indiscriminately, Keycard is often essential just to establish that you have sufficient key cards.

 

What your expert pairs should be doing is delicately cue-bidding to establish that they have the wherewithal to make a slam, then indelicately bidding Keycard to confirm that the opponents don't have the wherewithal to beat it.

 

I totally agree with the 2nd part and think that is how most pairs bid now. As far as the first part, I guess I only agree with the "should be." In practice in many post mortem discussions in online message forums, the "solutions" to a hand often involve cuebidding all the way to slam or grand, and it is better for this or that reason. I mean honestly when you can have an auction start 1S 2N 3C(short) 3D, I cannot imagine an auction where I need to cuebid to a slam or grand, we are already low enough that we can cuebid to make sure we have enough values and are not off an AK for slam, and then bid keycard. Of course preliminary cuebidding auctions also help for later auctions in keycard.

 

I am sure you could equally construct some auction where you cuebid all the way and both sides should know whats going on exactly, but in practice it never seems to work out that way.

 

I do not think it's a bad thing that slam bidding often works as you described in the 2nd paragraph I quoted (cuebid to make sure you have enough values and also every suit controlled, and then bid keycard to confirm you're not off 2 keycards or 1 plus the trump queen, etc).

 

Is this a function of expert pairs being too preoccupied with other things to make this a priority?

 

Or is it because there just isn't a consensus of what a high level cue bid shows or denies?

 

As gnasher indicated, often when you have done some cuebidding already, you are not sure if your partner has the ace, king, or stiff or void (some auctions you can eliminate the latter 2, but you still don't know about the former 2). Maybe one of your cuebids was last train just about values, so you're not sure if that's even a control. You have to sort all of that out, while still finding out if they have first and second round control, or whatever. On top of that, someone needs to figure out the trump quality situation. On top of that, maybe one partner will have more information than the other based on how the auction times out, but it's the other guy who needs the info to bid the grand, because he's sitting on extra tricks like KQJx that his partner doesn't know about.

 

Keycard eliminates all of that. By 4N, 5N, both partners have the same information about the other person's keycards. There is no doubt about trump quality or whether partners previous cuebid was the ace or the king. After that, bidding grands is pretty easy. For grand slam bidding it's tough to beat keycard, and for small slam bidding in most auctions you know whether you have enough values for slam before bidding keycard, and in some preempted auctions you may just choose to gamble, or you may choose to cuebid in that situation.

 

I mean, if it ain't broke don't fix it?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 

People rip on keycard a ton but it is a very powerful convention, especially for bidding grands. I never seem to see expert pairs cuebidding their way delicately to grands, this leaves a huge margin of error and interpretation for everything.

Agree.

 

Some, and I think avery few, will only cuebid past 4NT ( RKC ) when holding at least the A and K of trumps, which of couse greatly curtails 5-level cuebidding.

[gnasher]

What do you think 5NT is in a cuebidding auction? We play it as "no further cuebids but still interested in 7", which means more than minimal strength in the trump suit. If I have bid the trump suit and partner has supported, then my 5NT says I have 2+ top honors there, and partner's 5NT shows he has 1+ top honor there.

 

Well, that's in theory. In practice we always bid blackwood. ;)

Sometimes 5NT is pick-a-slam. I think that has contributed to the tendency to choose Keycard over five-level cue-bidding.

 

In auctions where 5NT is available for grand-slam investigation, I like to play it as RKCB. That lets us conduct a delicate cue-bidding sequence without risking the indignity of having them cash an ace against seven.

[han]

Sometimes 5NT is pick-a-slam. I think that has contributed to the tendency to choose Keycard over five-level cue-bidding.

 

I don't think so. I think that there are few partnerships that establish a fit (for example with 1S - 2NT), then cuebids all the way to 5NT and then bids 5NT to discuss which suit to play. I think that 5NT pick a slam is a great convention, but I don't think it has anything to do with the popularity of RKC.

[gnasher]

I wasn't talking specifically about sequences starting 1M-2NT, but about slam sequences in general - especially 2/1 sequences where you've agreed a major but there's a minor that might be playable.

 

But I don't really know if 5NT is pick-a-slam in those sequences either - beause they always bid Keycard, we never get to find out what 5NT would have meant .