3 Level Preempt Question

[Adam1105]

Partner and I not vulnerable.

Opps vulnerable.

Playing SAYC card in BBO tourney.

 

Partner opens bidding passing.

My RHO passes.

 

My hand.

♠void

♥xxx

♦xxx

♣QJxxxxx

 

I bid 3 clubs.

 

My LHO doubles.

Partner bids 3NT with whatever he had. (I can't remember--it's not important.)

 

Partner screams bloody murder that my bid is outrageous. (I checked a SAYC card on the net today and my bid seems kosher according to it.)

 

Was my bid outrageous?

[awm]

You are third seat, white vs. red. Almost anything goes at this position with regard to preempts; your hand is certainly fine. You might not want to bid 3♣ if you were in first or second position.

 

Anyway, there is no passed hand that should bid 3NT and expect to make it opposite a preempt. Partner's the ridiculous one here.

[olien]

either way, I believe I would pull to 4♣ given that partner is passed. I understand there's no hand with which partner passed initially that could now want to play 3NT, but I'll save him from his own stupidity since I have no desire whatsoever to play 3NT-X.

[whereagles]

outrageous? hell yes, you're worth 4♣ at least :)

[whereagles]

I understand there's no hand with which partner passed initially that could now want to play 3NT

 

that might not be totally true.. imagine you have

 

Axx

Axx

xxxxx

Kx

 

pass pass 3♣ dbl

??

 

3NT now is normal, hoping for AQxxxxx and out across. Sure, with the actual hand opener has to pull to 4♣, as he knows he doesn't have the magic hand.

[Free]

Your bid is not outrageous at all. With this vulnerability 3♣ (or even higher/psych if you feel lucky) is common sense. Partner's 3NT is outrageous, you won't have a decent hand anyway. And what is he complaining about? Opps have game, if he goes -9 you'll still have a good score.

[Free]

that might not be totally true.. imagine you have

 

Axx

Axx

xxxxx

Kx

 

pass pass 3♣ dbl

??

 

3NT now is normal, hoping for AQxxxxx and out across. Sure, with the actual hand opener has to pull to 4♣, as he knows he doesn't have the magic hand.

1. that's an opening hand.

2. AQxxxxx is quite a holding for a 3rd seat favorable preempt don't you think? :rolleyes:

[ArtK78]

You are third seat, white vs. red. Almost anything goes at this position with regard to preempts; your hand is certainly fine. You might not want to bid 3♣ if you were in first or second position.

 

Anyway, there is no passed hand that should bid 3NT and expect to make it opposite a preempt. Partner's the ridiculous one here.

 

I might be piling on, but Adam's post really says it all.

[pooltuna]

I would expect partner to run from any X of 3NT. I will be irritated if partner passes the decision around to me but I will run. BTW I could easily have a ♣ less and make the 3♣ call.

[whereagles]

1. that's an opening hand.

2. AQxxxxx is quite a holding for a 3rd seat favorable preempt don't you think? :rolleyes:

 

1. Maybe it is in your standards, but not all would agree. That's the point.

2. Just because people sometimes open 3♣ on jack-7th and out it doesn't mean you won't have a decent suit once in a while :P

[whereagles]

Anyway, there is no passed hand that should bid 3NT and expect to make it opposite a preempt. Partner's the ridiculous one here.

 

I don't agree. In fact, I just gave an example above:

 

Axx

Axx

xxxxx

Kx

 

xxx

xx

x

AQxxxxx

 

Sure, you can discuss with pard that 3NT by a passed hand is best used as a save-suggesting bid. I would even agree. But lacking such agreements I would only pull a 3NT by pard with a hand like the one of the original post.

[mgoetze]

Axx

Axx

xxxxx

Kx

 

You seem to have missed it so I'll point out for you again that that's an opening hand.

[Phil]

You seem to have missed it so I'll point out for you again that that's an opening hand.

 

Really? I would not open it, although I accept that this is a function of style.

 

Pulling to 4♣ is clear. A 3rd seat is wide ranging. If we have a good hand (perhaps even better than Whereagles), why shouldn't we be allowed to play 3N along the to 4m?

[han]

Pulling to 4C is clear. 3NT is possible with a passed hand.

[gwnn]

I'd bid 4♣ both rounds :)

[barmar]

You seem to have missed it so I'll point out for you again that that's an opening hand.

Probably not for anyone who thinks that QJ-7th and nothing else is an "outrageous" preempt 3rd seat favorable.

 

Can we see what hand partner actually had?

[mfa1010]

Han and gwnn sum it up.

[Lurpoa]

Partner and I not vulnerable.

Opps vulnerable.

Playing SAYC card in BBO tourney.

 

Partner opens bidding passing.

My RHO passes.

 

My hand.

♠void

♥xxx

♦xxx

♣QJxxxxx

 

I bid 3 clubs.

♣

My LHO doubles.

Partner bids 3NT with whatever he had. (I can't remember--it's not important.)

 

Partner screams bloody murder that my bid is outrageous. (I checked a SAYC card on the net today and my bid seems kosher according to it.)

 

Was my bid outrageous?

 

 

3♣ is OK. I myself would open 4♣.

[Siegmund]

I'd be willing to open this hand 3C in first or second seat too.

 

Put me down for 'no such thing as a passed hand 3NT' at this vulnerability. Ain't no way you are ever gonna see AQxxxxx in the dummy when I open only-3-clubs favorable.

 

You can make a case for passing because partner obviously miscounted and passed a 17-count in first maybe... or you can pass to punish him for being stupid... but 4C is the practical action to avoid a bottom.

[the hog]

that might not be totally true.. imagine you have

 

Axx

Axx

xxxxx

Kx

 

pass pass 3♣ dbl

??

 

3NT now is normal, hoping for AQxxxxx and out across. Sure, with the actual hand opener has to pull to 4♣, as he knows he doesn't have the magic hand.

 

Agree with Nuno. This is certainly at least a 3C opening and, yes, you might bid 3NT with Nuno's posted hand.

[MrAce]

I'd be willing to open this hand 3C in first or second seat too.

 

Put me down for 'no such thing as a passed hand 3NT' at this vulnerability. Ain't no way you are ever gonna see AQxxxxx in the dummy when I open only-3-clubs favorable.

 

 

I also open 3♣ in first seat with this. That doesnt mean i wld not open a normal preempt in first or 3rd seat though. I find it amusing to see people make agreements such as " Ain't no way you are ever gonna see AQxxxxx in the dummy when i open ONLY (lol) 3♣ favorable "

 

 

Opening agressive or conservative preempts is a matter of style, they both have ups and downs, but i cant see how they can have ups if they are predictable. In fact what you say is worse than being predictable, because good opponents will dig your agreement details believe me. So u will have to tell them yourself unless you are an unethical player and try to get away with explenations like "We open extremely agressive at favorable" instead of " We ONLY open extremely agressive when favorable"

 

I personally open a JTxxxxx suit at 3rd seat non vuln with nothing else, as well as with x KJ Jxxx AKJT9x or similar hands where i dont want opps to find thei major fit (and yes i risk missing a non vuln game). Not only for preventing them to step in with major at low levels, but also for reducing their accuracy in bidding,defense or declarer play by simply trying to avoid being predictable.