ATB

[Hanoi5]

[hv=pc=n&w=s543hj5da954ckqt5&e=saq8hakqtd2ca9764&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=p1cp1dp2hp3cp3sp4cp4dp5cppp]266|200[/hv]

 

3♣ shows ♣ support with a non-minimum hand.

4NT would have been RKCB at any moment after 3♣.

[aguahombre]

4NT would have been RKCB at any moment after 3♣.

Darn. I looked at the bidding diagram and thought after 3C 3S patterned out, and then 4D over 4C was kicking back with the correct answer ---followed by a brain fart by opener.

 

The statement that 4NT would have been the asker, screwed me up. Maybe it screwed them up, too.

[Hanoi5]

The statement that 4NT would have been the asker, screwed me up. Maybe it screwed them up, too.

 

So you blame the result on not playing a convention? Nice.

[aguahombre]

Whatever. I was suggesting maybe they had a misunderstanding.

 

But, since you brought it up --and since if you read my post you might notice that the exact same sequence thru 5C would give them the information they need for the slam --- then, yeh, the blame might be on their system where 4NT is BW for clubs.

Edited May 22, 2011 by aguahombre

[gnasher]

Assuming that 3♠ showed something in spades, I think West should insist on slam. He has a huge hand opposite the jump shift and subsequent slam try.

 

We don't have to use Blackwood on every deal, but West should use it this time in case there is a grand slam. After hearing of three keycards, West can envisage seven - AK AKxx x AJxxxx makes it cold - so he should probably bid 5NT to show all the key cards. East will know that ♠K is missing because West didn't cue-bid it, so he'll sign off.

 

It would be nice to get to 7♣ with xxx Jx Axxx KQxx opposite Ax AKQx x AJxxxx, but I think that's too hard.

[Cyberyeti]

So you blame the result on not playing a convention? Nice.

I blame the big hand. 4♦ is a bad bid on two levels.

 

1) don't cue shortages in partner's suit, it's very possible partner with AQxxx will be disappointed.

2) it doesn't tell him what he needs to know, over 5♣ he may be laydown for 7 or struggling to make 5.

 

And yes if you're going to play with one hand tied behind your back by having to use 4N as blackwood, it makes bidding these slams accurately much more difficult. Having the other one tied behind your back by not playing (or not being able to use in this case, not sure of system) 1♣-2♣ inverted also doesn't help. The difficulty for us would be staying out of 7 not bidding 6, although it's not a grand I'm ashamed of.

[Finch]

West has 2 key cards and the queen of trumps, and a fourth trump, opposite a hand that showed a game force opposite a 1-level response and then made a further slam try. The flavour of blackwood has nothing to do with missing slam, he has a slam drive.

 

p.s. I also don't like the 4D cue but that isn't really the problem with the hand.

[Cyberyeti]

West has 2 key cards and the queen of trumps, and a fourth trump, opposite a hand that showed a game force opposite a 1-level response and then made a further slam try. The flavour of blackwood has nothing to do with missing slam, he has a slam drive.

 

p.s. I also don't like the 4D cue but that isn't really the problem with the hand.

The slam is no gimme opposite a hand as good as AJ, AKxx, Kx, Axxxx (give N ♥xxx and ♣J9x and a spade lead). I think it has to be driven from the big hand.

 

How much easier to be able to bid

 

1♣-2♣-2♦(ask)-2N(min, 4♦ no 4M)-3♥(stop)-3♠(no spade stop, prob only 4♣)-4♦(RKCB)-5♣(2 with)-

 

and make your decision from there knowing partner has some 3-2 smallish cards in the majors Axxx, KQxx and won't have both of ♦KQ, so 6 is the obvious bid in the absence of knowing about J♥ (♠J10 would also improve it in the absence of ♥J in some circumstances). As it is, I don't really care if I'm in 7 or not, trumps 2-2 is laydown, trumps 3-1 it can't be worse than the spade finesse.

[gnasher]

Deleted (can't count)

[rhm]

The slam is no gimme opposite a hand as good as AJ, AKxx, Kx, Axxxx (give N ♥xxx and ♣J9x and a spade lead). I think it has to be driven from the big hand.

I would want to be in slam opposite ♠AJ, ♥AKxx, ♦Kx, ♣Axxxx every day of the week and the slam would be almost lay-down if the ♠J would be the ♣J, which is more likely. East showed his strength, West clearly underbid. Why not 4♦ after 3♣ instead of rebidding the ♣?

I would almost never stop below 6♣ after 2♥ unless opener could convince me that there is no control in ♠.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[aguahombre]

It seems to be opener who should engineer to count the tricks on this hand. West doesn't need to speculate.

 

Whatever in the majors, and AXXX KQXX in the minors, is as close to a sure slam as there is; and way back there, 4C showed the fourth club --but not just good clubs and crap (as 5C would have shown).

[Cyberyeti]

I would want to be in slam opposite ♠AJ, ♥AKxx, ♦Kx, ♣Axxxx every day of the week and the slam would be almost lay-down if the ♠J would be the ♣J, which is more likely. East showed his strength, West clearly underbid. Why not 4♦ after 3♣ instead of rebidding the ♣?

I would almost never stop below 6♣ after 2♥ unless opener could convince me that there is no control in ♠.

 

Rainer Herrmann

Of course you'd want to be in it opposite that, but that's a pretty good hand for the bid. Now try AJ, AQxx, KJ, Axxxx which is worse than a finesse on a spade lead, and partner doesn't have to have 19 (although I'm not totally sure how many points/how much shape he does have to have in the system being played as I'd just bid 1♥ over 1♣-1♦ if not allowed to raise clubs straight off).

[hatchett]

West should bid 4♣ over 2♥ to show huge ♣ support and slam interest.

He knows his partner having game forced will be worried about trumps so make it easy for him.

[ahydra]

After partner opens 1C, I can rarely be bothered to bid 1D when I have 4-card club support and no major. So 1C-2C(inverted) then East shows the biggest hand he can, probably by bidding and bidding and bidding until West gets the point (I think the hand is even too big for a 4D SPL, which would normally show 5 losers or so). Admittedly I play 4cM though, and this doesn't really apply to short clubs.

 

Given the actual auction, I'm down for blaming West for the 5C "giving up" rather than bidding 4NT. As others have mentioned East already GF'd then showed values in all the other suits and made a slam try of his own, all without knowing about West's KQ10x trumps and DA.

 

ahydra

[dboxley]

West should bid 4♣ over 2♥ to show huge ♣ support and slam interest.

He knows his partner having game forced will be worried about trumps so make it easy for him.

 

Like Hatchett said.

[hatchett]

Now try AJ, AQxx, KJ, Axxxx which is worse than a finesse ).

 

This a pretty terrible GF with almost half its points in the short suits,

which would have hopefully done less bidding than in the OP.

[han]

I would have bid 4C over 2H with responder's hand.

[655321]

3♣ shows ♣ support with a non-minimum hand.

 

Was this the problem for West? Seems like he decided that having shown 'club support in a non-minimum hand' he could now relax and forget that he wants to be in slam opposite East's jump shift.

[MrAce]

I agree with Francis and Rainer. I think it is absurd not to bid slam by west.

[Free]

I don't like the 4♣ bid because he creates problems and West won't have any use for the response from opener.

 

I don't like the 4♦ bid because for me this should be void or the Ace. 3♠ patterned out, so opener has 0-1♦. Cuebidding 4♦ with a small singleton is wrong imo. If East bids 4♥, West can bid 4♠ Last Train and get his hand across, but this is probably not standard, especially in such situation where East actually showed a ♦ cue by patterning out. So it's still dubious.

 

I think West bid 5♣ because he thought he didn't have the power to bid slam, he didn't have any Major suit control, and he already showed slam interest by bidding 3♣ and 4♣. However, you know ♦KQJ are probably in opponents' hands. So slam should definitely be possible, opps won't be able to cash an AK in a Major suit.

 

All this considered, I blame West more than East.

[whereagles]

After 3♠ showing values, responder knows his diamond ace is a pretty good card and he should show it now with 4♦. West's auction is more consistent with

 

xxx

Jx

KJxx

KJTx

 

I would say responder has more responsibilities here than opener.

[Cyberyeti]

This a pretty terrible GF with almost half its points in the short suits,

which would have hopefully done less bidding than in the OP.

I normally assume KJ is a pretty good holding in partner's bid suit, xxx, xx, AQxx, Kxxx is a near laydown slam, Q109xx of diamonds and ♠K is a pretty good 3N.

[hatchett]

I normally assume KJ is a pretty good holding in partner's bid suit, xxx, xx, AQxx, Kxxx is a near laydown slam

 

If by near laydown you mean 65%, I agree.

I agree KJ in partner's suit is a good holding , but Axxxx is very bad in your main suit, and AJ doubleton in the 'fourth suit'

is not very good either and you overall high card strength is at the weakest end of a GF

[Cyberyeti]

If by near laydown you mean 65%, I agree.

I agree KJ in partner's suit is a good holding , but Axxxx is very bad in your main suit, and AJ doubleton in the 'fourth suit'

is not very good either and you overall high card strength is at the weakest end of a GF

Sorry, I had in my mind the original version of the hand that I posted with ♥AKxx rather than AQxx which is basically not much more than clubs not 4-0, but even so you want to be in it. I also had in my mind that partner had guaranteed 4 clubs in these sequences so ♣Axxxx is no disaster, am I wrong about this ? I asked a question as to what 2♥ would show (I play acol rather than any of the american systems and have never used the traditional acol meaning anyway) which nobody has answered, I also never realised 2♥ was GF in this type of sequence, I have certainly never played it as such, thought it guaranteed not that much more than a reverse did.

[hatchett]

I asked a question as to what 2♥ would show (I play acol rather than any of the american systems and have never used the traditional acol meaning anyway) which nobody has answered, I also never realised 2♥ was GF in this type of sequence, I have certainly never played it as such, thought it guaranteed not that much more than a reverse did.

 

The standard meaning of 2♥ in both Acol and Standard American is that it is natural and game forcing. I think some people on this

forum maybe play 2NT over a jump shift as a bad hand that wants to stop short of game but that is non standard.

The upper range of the bid is up to a 2♣ opener. The expectation is that it will have 5+♣ and 4♥, the exception being a 4414 hand

or possibly some super strong 2245 hand that is 'fixed' by the 1♦ response or a hand with long clubs that has to invent a forcing bid.

3♣ by responder shows 3 or more ♣.