Query re: 1NT structure

[Flem72]

Folk:

 

I like weak NTs. Lately I've been toying with the idea of:

 

1N = 12-14, no 4-card M

 

1m, then rebid 1N = 12-17. If 12-14, then at least one 4-card M; if

15-17, any. After the 1m open/1N rebid, 2C = range Stayman--more

likely range checkback. The problem would seem to be the good 8 to 11

HCP responding hands, specifically the 8-9s--this structure could

force Us into 4-2 2-level fits (Garbage Stayman risk also) or 2N with

12 opposite 8-9 (not horrible) or commit Us to 3N with 15 opposite 8

or bad 9. This may be a matter of deciding what is a good 8-bad 9.

 

Anyone know of anything similar I could study?

 

Regards and Happy Trails,

 

Scott Needham

Boulder, Colorado, USA

[gwnn]

Matchpoint precision used to include this, unless I'm mistaken. I found some links but they weren't very helpful.

 

However, I'm wondering which sequences you're talking about exactly.

 

Looks like

 

1m-1S

1N

 

would be 12-17 with possibly 4 hearts but less than 4 spades, but

 

1m-1H

1N

 

could be narrowly defined as 15-17 since you can rebid 1S with a 12-14?

 

Anyway I don't like the idea. I think if you have a weak NT it's for your own good to open it as often as possible. Indeed sometimes you miss a 4-4 major suit fit, but never opening 1N on any hand that this danger is possible is over-egging this particular pudding.

[ArtK78]

Back in the 70s, a weak 1NT denying a 4 card major was a part of the Matchpoint Precision system. You might find something about it if you look for the original Matchpoint Precision text.

 

I can't imagine how a 1NT rebid showing 12-17 could be playable, but I leave that to you.

[Cyberyeti]

I'd ask the question why you're looking at this, I think we've looked at the same problem and come up with 2 different solutions at different times.

 

What system are you trying to crowbar this into ?

[Quantumcat]

When you pre-empt, you are making the decision that the hand belongs to the opponents. When the hand belongs to the opponents, being constructive is no longer an issue, you just try and be as unhelpful as possible.

 

A 12-14 1NT opening is pre-emptive. Opening it as often as possible is to your advantage.

 

Also it is way easier for the opponents to compete: the weak NT opener will almost never have a takeout double, and when the responder has a takeout double over a major, they can rest easy knowing that opener can't possibly have a pass (also the takeout double will tell them they have an 8-10 card fit, making competing even easier). In short, you will basically always be forced to sell-out at the two-level, and can never defend doubled.

 

Another point is that playing a weak NT makes life easy for your partner when you open a suit. If you are balanced, you will be strong, and if you are not strong, you'll have some shape. So he has way more options than a pair playing a strong NT, especially in competition. If you might actually have a weak NT when you open a suit, he no longer has those options anymore.

[Flem72]

What system are you trying to crowbar this into ?

 

5-card M, WNT, basically 2/1 with K-S minor structures (and maybe K-S 1S-2H). I had thought that it might make competitive situations less clear to opps, and create more doubled contracts for us to defend; I've been parsing competitive scenarios, but to little effect.

 

It has occurred to me that it makes little sense to have the 1NT opener be majorless--then what does 1m-1M/2M mean? Also, as pointed out on r.g.b, that requirement gets rid of A LOT of balanced mins, so you'd be opening 1WNT much less often--a bad thing. So I'm interested in what you may have come up with, but I'm losing faith that it'd work.

 

Regards and Happy Trails,

 

Scott Needham

Boulder, Colorado, USA

[Quantumcat]

I had thought that it might make competitive situations less clear to opps,

Actually it makes competing much easier, over the 1NT opening. It doesn't change anything over a suit opening (the auctions will be basically identical to playing a strong NT) Opener will never get to make a reopening double and partner will have to have a specific shape for a takeout double, and if the overcall is a major it can never be passed out. So the opps can overcall anytime with any hand.

 

and create more doubled contracts for us to defend; I've been parsing competitive scenarios, but to little effect.

Not over 1NT it won't. And I don't see why it would over a suit opening, either. Do you have some example auctions?

 

I have an example auction. Take this:

 

♠T3

♥K62

♦JT632

♣KQ7

 

1♣ (1♥) ?

 

Playing a weak NT, you have no problem cue-raising with 2♥. If partner has 15-17, you'll get to 3NT (he can bid 3♥ to rightside the contract if necessary), and if he doesn't, he'll have at least five clubs and you are quite happy in 3♣ with that.

 

However, if partner could have a weak NT, you have a problem. bidding 2♣ could mean you play there when partner has a strong NT and you could make 3NT (it is very bad to bid 2NT with a strong NT in this case, partner might have 5 clubs and 6 points) and bidding 1NT when partner has a weak hand with clubs will mean it will go ...2♥ passed to you, and you'll have to pass (partner could have a weak NT with three or four clubs).

 

There is a reason that 1NT has a narrow range of points and opening a suit denies holding a balanced hand with the points you ascribed to the 1NT opening.

[Cyberyeti]

5-card M, WNT, basically 2/1 with K-S minor structures (and maybe K-S 1S-2H). I had thought that it might make competitive situations less clear to opps, and create more doubled contracts for us to defend; I've been parsing competitive scenarios, but to little effect.

 

It has occurred to me that it makes little sense to have the 1NT opener be majorless--then what does 1m-1M/2M mean? Also, as pointed out on r.g.b, that requirement gets rid of A LOT of balanced mins, so you'd be opening 1WNT much less often--a bad thing. So I'm interested in what you may have come up with, but I'm losing faith that it'd work.

 

Regards and Happy Trails,

 

Scott Needham

Boulder, Colorado, USA

2 partnerships I was involved with did it different ways.

 

We thought opening a weakish no trump was desirable 1st and 2nd so played an 11-16 no trump with a complicated set of responses involving 4+ card invitational or better red suit transfers with 2♣ as a multi purpose bid for many hands.

 

This worked very well, as did the 14-19 3rd/4th 1N and the 15-20 1N overcall which was probably best of all, but absorbed a lot of braincells remembering it.

 

What I do now (which solves a different problem) is to play a standard 12-14 1N opener, with a 15-bad 19 1N rebid and good 19-21 2N opener meaning opener's 2N rebid can be GF and not balanced (may or may not be balanced over a 2 level response, specifically unbalanced over a 1 level response).

 

I suspect if your weak no trump is majorless by design, playing it wide range would be easier, so you could get back some of the ones you're losing by opening it off a wider range of pointcounts.

[Flem72]

I have an example auction. Take this:

 

1NT?

[Quantumcat]

I have an example auction. Take this:

1NT?

bidding 1NT when partner has a weak hand with clubs will mean it will go ...2♥ passed to you, and you'll have to pass (partner could have a weak NT with three or four clubs).

They get to play in 2♥ when you could make 3♣.

[benlessard]

Keeping best minor approach

 

if 1Nt = no M

 

1D--1H 1Nt = 15-17

1C--1red--1Nt = 15-17

 

So one of the problem is

 

1C--1S---1Nt ???

1D--1S---1Nt ???

 

with a S fit you can play

 

1C--1S

2H = min S raise or GF /reverse

2S = good raise (15-17 bal) or shape

 

if you play that

1D--1NT (8-10)

1C--1Nt (8-10)

With 6-7 pts responder bid a 3card M.

 

responder will pass with 12-14 and go on with 15-17.

 

 

so the hands with no M or with 4S are never a problems.

 

The only problem hands are 12-14 with 4H without 4S.

 

With 3442,3424, you can/should raise to 2S weak or good ruffing with the doubleton will mean 2s will be as good as 1Nt. So all is left is 3433,2443,2434 (if you play that 1C--1S show 5 you can bid 1Nt min/stiff S and make a 2 card raise with a max

 

1C--1S(showing 5)

2S become 17 with 2 trumps or good 14 with 3/4 trumps with shape.

 

1C--1S(showing5)

2H-- 15-16 with 2 trumps 12-4 with fit.

 

1C---1S

1Nt = stiff in S or 12-14 bal with 2 trumps

 

so only 2443 12-14 cause problems, the possible lies is to open this specific shape 1C and make a 2 card raise if 15-17 and 1nt if 12-14 (or to open 1Nt even with 4H).

 

If you dont need to keep best minor than there is switch range solution 1C-is range 1 and 1D is range 2) or 1C is bal and 1D is unbal.

[Flem72]

OK, I think this structure has promise and I'd really like comment. It is a modified XYZ/Crowhurst in which (A) the 1NT opener = 12-14 and one 4-card M, and (B) the 1m opener followed by a 1NT rebid is either both Ms or none, 12-17. The overall sturcture I play insists that 1m-1X/1M is unbalanced, so concealed 4-card M or two is possible. Also, 1m-1x/1M and 1D-1M/2C are forcing, so mini-splinters and void splinters are in the mix. XYZ is on, except that R's 2C does not relay but is a range inquiry holding a good 8 (probably two As with good spots or similar) to a bad 11. So opening 1m should probably be alerted as: (a) long m, (b) balanced min, 12-14 with both Ms, or © 15-17 balanced, any distribution.

 

Though I'm still thinking it through, it seems that one advantage is that it is easier to tell when O holds a long m with a min hand that R might want to take to 3m in a competitive seq. (The ability to play 3m is often lost with "any bal min" WNT openers.) Another, it might inhibit M overcalls. A disadvantage for true WNTers is that it reduces the frequency of the opening 1N, especially with the 5m-3-3-2 and (2)-(3)-4-4 hands, but -- I am assured -- not as much as the "1NT = no 4-card M" criteria. I suspect tht, although the structure seems playable, others may be able to convince me that none of these advantages merit the shift in structure from plain vanilla WNT.

 

A. 1N = 12-14 bal with one 4-card M. Traditional structures, whatever you like. (I like either 4-suit transfers or forcing, non-forcing Stayman b/c my K-S self noticed that good 5-5s are hard to describe without one or the other.)

 

B. 1m then 1NT rebid = 12-17; if 12-14, then either both Ms or neither.

 

1m-1M/2M = 15-17 support points, bal, 4 cards.

1m-1M/1N-2C = Range inquiry, 8-11: all 2-level responses except 2N are 12-14, and 2N and higher are 15-17.

After any 2-level response, R places the contract.

1m-1M/1N-2C/? 2D = min, not 3M -- therefore no 4-card M -- probably 5 C if m = C, if m = D, then either

5 D or 4-4 minors.

2H = min, 3 cards in M, therefore either 3M-5m-2-3 or 3M-4m-4om-2OM

2S = min, 4 cards for M.

2N = 15-17 bal, not 3M not 4OM, so probably 5 C,5 D or 4-4 minors.

3C = 15-17 bal, 3M, not 4OM

3D = 15-17 bal, 3M, 4OM

3H = 15-17 bal, not 3M, 4OM, 15-16

3S = 15-17 bal, not 3M, 4OM, 16-17

 

Caveat: Just b/c the structure looks consistent and workable doesn't mean it has any clear advantages over vanilla WNT--and I'm particularly interested in comment along those lines.

 

Thanks, Regards and Happy Trails,

 

Scott Needham

Boulder, Colorado, USA

[benlessard]

You might look what i called multi inv approach with paradox responses. Ive played a wide ranging Nt 10-14 NV with surprising result, the range is so frequent that you learn quickly what are the best responses scheme.

 

1st option

 

1Nt---???

 

2C puppet to 2D

2D asking for supperaccet in H (in with a long suit or no M)

2M = to play

rest is GF

 

so with a long suit or no M responder go via 2D

1Nt---2D

???

 

2H i refuse a H accept

2S i super accept a H inv but refuse a S inv

2Nt min but i like both M

 

with a 4M hes goes 2C--2D---2M

 

This is geared toward inv hands and is poor for slam. You need to get some compensation for having a wide ranging Nt.

 

the 2nd option is with transfers,

 

is

 

2C- asking for 4H min (with 4H minimum OO bid 2H otherwise he bid 2D)

2D transfer (weak or GF could be 4 card if GF)

2H transfer (weak or GF can be 4 card is GF)

2S inv with 5/6S (OO pass or go on with a maxi)

 

1Nt---2C

2D----???

 

2H inv with 5H (partner pass or go on)

2S inv with 4S (need 3+ruffing power to pass)