5 card majors in balanced hands

[tolvyrj]

Lets assume that u 1 no trump range is 15-17, anyway not weak and u have 5 card major in that so 5332 pattern. Do u open with 1 of major or 1Nt, and how do u proceed?

Secondly how do u start with same pattern with 5 card major and 18-19 bal. aka stronger than 1 Nt opening but weaker than u 2Nt openening?

[awm]

My preference is usually to open 1M. This seems to find better partials when partner is weak, and also helps to find some light games when partner is weak with a big fit for my major. I will make an exception if the major suit is very weak or if I have a lot of tenaces (holdings like Kxx, AQx, etc) to protect.

 

The main problem with opening 1M is that you are often stuck for a rebid when partner responds 1NT (or 1♠ to your 1♥ open). This makes it appealing to start with 1NT when it otherwise wouldn't be, but I think that's more due to people having very detailed agreements about the follow-ups to a 1NT open and more nebulous agreements about follow-up to a 1M opening.

 

Anyway, my approach is:

 

17 hcp: open 1M almost always, plan to rebid 2NT (or 2♣ if playing Gazzilli)

16 hcp: playing Gazzilli, open 1M and rebid 2♣ (artificial forcing); without the convention I would open 1NT almost always

15 hcp: open 1M usually, plan to rebid 1NT or pass 1NT (if NF) or rebid 2m (over 1NT forcing)

[JLOGIC]

I like opening 1N unless you're at the top of your range (17).

[Free]

I like to open 1NT with a poor 5 card suit, and 1M with a good 5 card suit.

 

When you have a poor 5 card M and open 1M, you'll end up in 2M in a 5-2 fit with poor trumps way too often. If I have a good 5 card suit, 2M will probably be a decent spot, even in a 5-2 fit. We play Gazzilli to handle the stronger hands after 1M openings. After 1NT openings we don't even consider asking about 5 card Majors, so sometimes we end up in 3NT with a 5-3 M fit, while others go down in 4M because they lack trump control.

[Zelandakh]

My preferred system is to treat all 5332s as balanced but to upgrade by 0.5 hcp, thus if top of range treating the hand as the next range up unless there is a negative feature (such as Qx). When playing Acol I simply consider the rebid situation - that often means opening 1NT with 2 in the other major and 1M with 3 in the other major, since in Acol it is always ok to raise with 3. Obviously if you are using toys then you make the appropriate bid for the gadget's structure.

[gnasher]

I don't like opening 1NT with a five-card major, but I regard it as a necessity.

[whereagles]

Always 1NT is my preference, but it's really a matter of taste. Technically, you can build-up a good system with 1NT with or without 5 card majors.

[pooltuna]

Q1] 1NT - stayman, transfers,etc

Q2] 1mM - rebid 2NT over 1♠ or 1NT - rebid 3NT over 2x and 4mM over 2mM

 

I think this is pretty standard stuff.

[aguahombre]

I don't like opening 1NT with a five-card major, but I regard it as a necessity.

 

I think that describes the situation best. The 15-17 range will not clutter up other auctions. Lots of folks are using two Staymans as complement to the "necessity".

 

2C=all Stayman hands as before, except (4-3) G.F.

3C=puppetish, enroute to 3NT with a 3-card Major, or (4-3) in majors.

[Fluffy]

I've always been happy rebidding 3 card minors at the 2 level, the bidding would often be:

 

1M-1NT

2m-2M

2NT

 

to show 16-17 balanced or semibalanced hands. 15 hands are better passing 2M, and some 17 hands are worth upgrading to 18-19.

 

With 18-19 I'd bid 1M-1NT-2NT or 1♥-1♠-2NT

 

If partner makes a 2/1 I'd bid 2NT with 15+, usually reopen wtih 18+ later.

 

 

 

 

Regardless, if you sometimes open 1NT and sometimes don't I think it is important to note that when you open 1♥ spades can steal you the bidding, but when you open 1♠ it is harder. So you should open more 1NT with hearts than with spades

[Quantumcat]

You have to open 1NT. Otherwise you can never, ever describe your hand with your rebid, since you have denied holding 15-17 balanced.

 

Example:

 

1♥ 1♠

 

Rebids - why you can't rebid this - can rebid it in certain circumstances:

 

1NT = 12-14 balanced - You have 15-17

2♣/2♦ = five hearts and four ♣/♦ - You have only three ♣/♦

2♥ = 12-15 with six or more hearts - you have only five hearts and might have 16-17

2♠ = 12-15 with 3 or 4 spades - you might have 16-17 - if you have only 15 and 3 spades

2NT = 18-19 balanced - You have only 15-17

3♣/3♦ = gameforce You have only 15-17 balanced, can't have gameforce

3♥ = 16-18 with six or more hearts - You have only five hearts

3♠ = 16-18 with four spades - You have only 3 spades

 

It is ESPECIALLY troublesome when the opponents intervene. You'll never get to game when you can make it. Either you bid like you have 14 and you miss game, or you bid like you have 18 and you get into games that don't make.

 

It is still possible to get your five-card major out later.

 

For instance, if your partner makes an invitation, you can bid it to show acceptance of the invitation:

 

1NT 2NT

3♥ 3NT*/4♥**

*Responder had only 2 hearts or is flat

**Responder has three hearts and is not flat

 

Another example is when the opponents intervene. You can balance.

 

1NT (2♣) P (P)

2♥

 

Opening notrumps when you have the correct balanced range is even more important when you are playing Acol. When you open a suit, partner has lots of good choices, since if you are balanced you will be strong and if you are not strong you will have some shape. If you double-cross your partner, you will end up in some stupid spots as partner leaps about while you attempt to backpedal.

[awm]

You have to open 1NT. Otherwise you can never, ever describe your hand with your rebid, since you have denied holding 15-17 balanced.

 

There are a few things to be said about this though. First, there is no reason your agreements have to be as you've described. You could easily agree that a 1NT rebid is 12-15, or that a 2NT rebid is 17-19 or 17-18. You could agree to rebid 3-card minors after 1♥-1♠ or (more commonly) after 1M-1NT. You could agree to play a 2♣ rebid as an artificial one-round force.

 

Even if your agreements are vanilla standard (as you have described), it's not clear that what you lose by distorting your high card point total by a single point is necessarily more expensive than what you lose by suppressing your five-card major.

 

The problems that can arise include for example:

 

1NT-All Pass. Are you sure you're in the best partial? Often 1M will make and 1NT will not. You could easily have just missed a nine-card major fit. Further, partner could have something like a 4144 6-count opposite your 5332 17-count, a situation where 4♠ will very often make (and opponents may reel off a boatload of heart tricks against 1NT).

 

1NT-(2♦)-Pass-(3♦). Are you passing? Again, you might miss a nine-card major suit fit and go minus instead of going plus. Bid and of course you could get your head handed to you. Much easier to bid 1♥-(2♦) and let partner decide how many hearts he has in his hand.

 

1NT-3NT. Probably the contract is reasonable but suppose your hand is for example ♠xx ♥AKxxx ♦Axx ♣Axx. Aren't you worried about the spade suit? Might it be better to play 3NT from partner's side (protecting his spade holding) or play in 4♥ (if partner has weak spades)?

 

Further, you occasionally pick up numbers on auctions like 1M-X-2M-3x or 1M-P-2M-prebalance. The strong notrump hand type is one of the best ones to penalize; you have enough defense that you can almost always beat them at the three-level but not enough offense to make game that often opposite a normal single raise. Opening 1NT is more likely to let the opponents out on the two-level where it is more difficult to beat them down.

[Quantumcat]

You could easily agree that a 1NT rebid is 12-15, or that a 2NT rebid is 17-19 or 17-18.

I don't mind this, it is fine for the ranges to be a little warped, since your shape is very well known it makes up a little for the warped ranges.

 

 

You could agree to rebid 3-card minors after 1♥-1♠ or (more commonly) after 1M-1NT. You could agree to play a 2♣ rebid as an artificial one-round force.

This I don't like so much. When partner has 7-9 HCP, there is no room for invitation, as you could have 15-18 HCP. (You might bid this way with a 15(43)/25(42) 16-18 count, which is probably what you would have without the agreement to not have 5 card majors in 1NT openings)

 

Even if your agreements are vanilla standard (as you have described), it's not clear that what you lose by distorting your high card point total by a single point is necessarily more expensive than what you lose by suppressing your five-card major.

The range-changes when a major is opened that you said sound ok.

 

 

1NT-All Pass. Are you sure you're in the best partial?

This is a true problem. However, in my experience it seems to rarely happen. It happens more often to me when I play a 10-12 NV in 1/2 seat. I think this has something in common with the fact that with 28-30 HCP you will usually make as many tricks in 3NT as 4M with an 8 card fit, but with 25-27 you will probably make 9/10 tricks in 3NT and 10/11 in 4M. Probably with 18-21 HCP you will make 7/8 tricks in NT or 8/9 in your 8 card major fit, but with 22-24 you will probably make the same number of tricks in each. With a strong 1NT you might be more likely to be in the 22-24 HCP range than the 18-21 HCP range, so 1NT will make as many tricks as a major, but with a 10-12 1NT opening, you might be more likely to be in the 18-21 range, so you would make more tricks in a suit. (often you get to play the hand with 17-19 HCP, since the opponents can't find a way into the auction)

 

This thing you said about letting them into the auction since you are happy to defend with plenty of defense with your 15-17 balanced: remember partner doesn't know this, and deciding whether to bid or defend will be much, much harder on him if you might have a 1NT opening.

[Lurpoa]

Lets assume that u 1 no trump range is 15-17, anyway not weak and u have 5 card major in that so 5332 pattern. Do u open with 1 of major or 1Nt, and how do u proceed?

Secondly how do u start with same pattern with 5 card major and 18-19 bal. aka stronger than 1 Nt opening but weaker than u 2Nt openening?

 

 

 

 

Yes, a lot has been written on the subject, and systems are built upon it.

It is indeed important that you have good agreements with your partner on the subject.

 

 

Playing SAYC - which has no special guidelines on the subject - I like to handel it as follows.

 

15H: 1M and rebidding as if I have only 14 (P knows I can have 15)

 

16H: almost always: 1NT, else to dificult to rebid

 

17H: 1M and rebidding as if I have 18H.

[Fluffy]

You could agree to rebid 3-card minors after 1♥-1♠ or (more commonly) after 1M-1NT.

where it is more difficult to beat them down.

This I don't like so much. When partner has 7-9 HCP, there is no room for invitation, as you could have 15-18 HCP. (You might bid this way with a 15(43)/25(42) 16-18 count, which is probably what you would have without the agreement to not have 5 card majors in 1NT openings)

There is room for invitation because partner will pass 2m with few shapes, bidding 2M with 70-80% of the hands, and 2 or another suit 10-20%. You have easy rebids over this (normally 2NT)

 

You miss the same games for rebidding 2m with 5224 or 5134, nothing is new.

 

If partner passes 2m and you have the 15-17 HCP hand with 3 cards (roughly twice a year, and this is from a proffesional). You are at a good spot, and your game chances vary from 40 to 65%.

[Lurpoa]

I don't mind this, it is fine for the ranges to be a little warped, since your shape is very well known it makes up a little for the warped ranges.

 

 

 

This I don't like so much. When partner has 7-9 HCP, there is no room for invitation, as you could have 15-18 HCP. (You might bid this way with a 15(43)/25(42) 16-18 count, which is probably what you would have without the agreement to not have 5 card majors in 1NT openings)

 

 

The range-changes when a major is opened that you said sound ok.

 

 

 

This is a true problem. However, in my experience it seems to rarely happen. It happens more often to me when I play a 10-12 NV in 1/2 seat. I think this has something in common with the fact that with 28-30 HCP you will usually make as many tricks in 3NT as 4M with an 8 card fit, but with 25-27 you will probably make 9/10 tricks in 3NT and 10/11 in 4M. Probably with 18-21 HCP you will make 7/8 tricks in NT or 8/9 in your 8 card major fit, but with 22-24 you will probably make the same number of tricks in each. With a strong 1NT you might be more likely to be in the 22-24 HCP range than the 18-21 HCP range, so 1NT will make as many tricks as a major, but with a 10-12 1NT opening, you might be more likely to be in the 18-21 range, so you would make more tricks in a suit. (often you get to play the hand with 17-19 HCP, since the opponents can't find a way into the auction)

 

This thing you said about letting them into the auction since you are happy to defend with plenty of defense with your 15-17 balanced: remember partner doesn't know this, and deciding whether to bid or defend will be much, much harder on him if you might have a 1NT opening.

 

 

Very usefull considerations...

[blackshoe]

Interestingly, Romex doesn't have this problem, because the Dynamic Notrump is an artificial bid which serves two purposes: it spreads strong hands among more forcing openings (there are four forcing openings in Romex, not one as in standard or 2/1) and it limits the opening one level suit bids to 18 HCP. So all hands with 12-18 HCP open one of a suit.

 

1x-1y;1NT is 12-16 HCP, with 2 way checkback available to responder

1x-1y;2NT is 17-18 HCP.

 

Also, Romex uses the Walsh approach: 1♣-1♦-1NT does not deny a four card major. 1m-1♥-1♠ is either an unbalanced hand, or a balanced 4432 with a weak doubleton in the unbid minor.

[lowerline]

I agree with awm and Fluffy. I would like to add some more considerations:

 

• If you don't play 2/1 gf (like me), make the agreement that the 2nt rebid is gf and that the 2M rebid just shows a minimum. That way you can always rebid 2nt with 15-17 after a 2-over-1. Unfortunately you can not do this in Acol...
• 5crd ♠ is less of a problem than 5crd ♥ because there is only one answer (1nt) that gives you a problem. If you still play it that way, you can rebid 2nt with 16-17 (1M-1nt-2nt). If you have made the popular choice and have given some special meaning to that 2nt rebid, you have more reason to open 1nt with a 5crd major...
• If you only have a doubleton in the other major and you open 1nt, you risk playing in a 5-2 fit while there is a 5-3 fit available. With a suit-oriented hand with only a small doubleton, there are even more problems (see awm's example).
• If you make it a rule to never open 1nt with 5-2 in the majors, your rebid of 2♣ can be on a 3crd suit (but not a doubleton), but the 2♦ rebid will always be a 4crd suit. So what is the worst that can happen after 1♥-1♠-2♣? Responder can have 5-1-3-4 and raise you to 3♣... Sure, but with 10-11 and a ♦-stopper he will prefer 2nt because he knows you can have a 3crd suit...

If you take all the considerations, given in this thread, into account, you will sometimes open 1M and sometimes open 1nt and, to me, that sounds like a good approach...

 

Steven

[tolvyrj]

Thx a bunch guys, u arguments r so good that i dont know what to do anymore with that sort of a hand. Sure with 15 hcp. i shave one or two of them away if i can and open 1 M, rebiding is now easier as my hand is not that hot anymore; lacking distributional values.

On the other hand i must agree with the Quantumcat too, if u open with 1M and prd fails to 1) support that or 2) bid 1Nt u tend to be in trouble. U cant describe u hand right anymore.

My own policy with my regular prd has long been that if u cant find any excuse 5332 is a balanced hand and shld be bid accordingly.

[P_Marlowe]

1M - always.

 

I dont mind 1NT, but my reg. p likes it that way.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[wickedbid1]

I like to play 1nt forcing, and put opening 1nt as 14+ to 17- in my profile. This gives me maximum flexibility with those awkward hands.

 

With a balanced 14 count & a 5ve card major, i usually open 1M. If the hand has a couple tenaces that need protecting & will generate extras, i may upgrade to a 15 count. (i also giv weight to texture -- 10s & 9s)

 

With 15-16 (the range that would accept an invite) I open 1nt to keep these hands out of the major opening. They r too weak to take two voluntary bids on, in my opinion. Yet one rarely will be in the wrong contract if opener has at least invitational values (one can show the 5 crd major "on the way" to 3nt), and the 15-16 hcp generally means 1nt is playable, tho not always ideal. Ther r many hands which will score about as well in one or the other, or that play better in the 5-2 fit than in nt or that play better in nt than the 5-3 fit... even a 5-4 fit often can make 3nt just as easily as languish in 3 h/s making 3. So these considerations largely cancel each other out, in my opinion. It's more important to maximise the chance of an extra trick from right siding the contract -- in nt or with transfers -- and the negative inference of "no 15-16 bal" in major openings is invaluable. When several methods appear playable, the best way to decide between them is to add together the positive implications and the clear negative inferences about what pard SHOULDN'T have. Most of the good treatments do double duty in this way (4th suit forcing, cue-bidding up the line, etc.)

 

A bad 17 count is treated like a 16 count. 1m - 2nt being 17+ to 19. A lot of people don't like to languish in 1 minor when they could hav found som way to bid nt, but this is not a problem to me... when pard is wk i am happy to squeak out any old small plus if i can.

 

I strongly dislike opening two nt with as little as 19 -- and even dislike opening it with 20-21, but at least here there is a fair amount of "field protection" for a somewhat wonky bid. I suppose when the majority shift to 19-20 or some such, i will feel forced to shift down too, and just hate the bid 30 percent more often.

 

I think the above method is pretty good, even if one is not playing 2/1 style, but if one is, one shld note that 1M - 1nt(f) - 2c/d is not very encouraging at all (12 to ?) so a lot of games would be missed with 16 opposite 9 or so.

[mtvesuvius]

I upgrade liberally, so with 15-16 and a 5cM, definitely 1N. With 14, if it's a good suit then 1N, otherwise 1M. With 17, usually 1M.

[bluecalm]

My feeling is that opening 1M is better, especially at matchpoints but you for sure need some system and a lot of discussion to make it work.

Many decent bidders (Meckwell for example) just open 1NT almost every time they are in range so it can't be that terrible though :)

Best Italian pairs open 1M but they have gazilli in place which come in handy when it comes to solving problems of 15-17 hands.