Take out or penalty?

[jschafer]

(1♥)-Pass-(1NT)-Pass

(Pass)-X

 

Is this a hand with values and ♥s interested in defending or a flawed take out double?

[Hanoi5]

I play it as showing hearts 'cause I think it makes more sense (or it's more profitable) but I'm sure it's a matter of agreement. Fluffy would play it as take-out I think.

[gnasher]

I prefer to play it as flawed takeout, but in this forum that's a minority view.

[helene_t]

t/o, lighter than direct t/o obv. 4♠5♦ w/o club tolerance possible.

[awm]

I prefer to play this as around 12-14 balanced with a strong heart holding.

 

It's penalty-oriented I guess, but it's not a true "penalty double of 1♥" -- more a cooperative type call. Partner can remove it with a five-card suit of his own.

 

My view is that this hand type is much more common than either the "true penalty" hand type or the "flawed takeout" hand type (especially given how often people seem to double in direct seat with the "flawed takeout" hand type). While doubling here is occasionally risky (i.e. partner has no real values and no five-card suit) it seems to produce a good score out of thin air much more often than a disaster.

[Fluffy]

weak Take out at MPs is by far the most likelly, specially when you don't double with 10 counts 4144 or alike.

 

At IMPs a penalty (oriented) double makes mucho more sense than at MPs

[menggq]

i play this dbl for penalty.

[Quantumcat]

I play it as either a weak take-out or complete penalty.

 

There is a difference of at least 3 or 4 hearts and at least 7 HCP so partner should be able to figure out which it is.

[mike777]

fwiw I play this as modified dont in this position so x=

 

 

x=long minor or both majors.

2c=c and other

2d=d and higher

2h=h

2s=s

 

that means I give up on penalty x here

[fromageGB]

i play this dbl for penalty.

 

 

I play it as either a weak take-out or complete penalty.

 

There is a difference of at least 3 or 4 hearts and at least 7 HCP so partner should be able to figure out which it is.

I can't see how this can be penalty, really. What penalty hand would not overcall with 1NT or X ? I like the idea of a 2-way double, but if the 2 options are a 10/11 (or other flawed) takeout and a 12-14 "cooperative penalty", there is no way partner is going to be able to work out which it is.

[rduran1216]

I prefer to play this as around 12-14 balanced with a strong heart holding.

 

It's penalty-oriented I guess, but it's not a true "penalty double of 1♥" -- more a cooperative type call. Partner can remove it with a five-card suit of his own.

 

My view is that this hand type is much more common than either the "true penalty" hand type or the "flawed takeout" hand type (especially given how often people seem to double in direct seat with the "flawed takeout" hand type). While doubling here is occasionally risky (i.e. partner has no real values and no five-card suit) it seems to produce a good score out of thin air much more often than a disaster.

 

completely agree.

[OleBerg]

Yes.

 

Partner looks at his heart-holding, and figures it out.

[dake50]

Likely a S-fit for us.

1NT response skipped 1S.

Takeout as partner didn't account for my trap pass.

[gszes]

for those treating the x as penalty (please lead a heart p) just

how often do you think you will play 1n x?? It would seem far

more likely you are letting the opps off the hook in a contract

they cannot make and giving them another chance.

 

Playing this as a weak t/o is a heck of a lot more flexible

and allows us to compete with nowhere near the downside of

x as penalty. Having to pass meekly with a 5 count 4144 might

seem safer but at mp especially it is a recipe for one

below avg board after another. (at imps it is probably

around 5 imps tossed away).

[awm]

I have to say, doubling this on a 4144 5-count is just asking for your head on a platter.

 

How many hearts do you think partner has? Opponents have advertised exactly five for opener and at most two for responder, so partner has at least five hearts.

 

So your partner's longest suit is also the longest suit of your RHO. And most of your side's presumed points (in partner's hand) are in front of most of their side's points (opener). Further, there is no reason to think you have the majority of the values when your hand is this bad. The opponents haven't found a fit and knowing that partner is sitting on a boatload of hearts, there is not much reason to think your side has a fit either.

 

In contrast, my definition of double implies that we have strength behind their strength and hearts behind their hearts. This is a good opportunity to set them or to make our own contract. Yes, I expect to defend 1NTX fairly often, and if opponents try to run then we may well double their contract or find a contract of our own.