Crunch3nt Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Hi all, I am looking for a clean slate, fresh, innovative ideas on how to respond to our 1st/2nd seat opening pass that shows: 0-6 HCP any shape or 16+ Unbalanced any shape, or 17+ Balanced. I am pretty happy with our 1st/2nd seat structure. Lets focus on the 3rd/4th openings only. (Positive comments are ok :-) We play moscito-ish openings with full relay. Our style is for balanced hands to include all 4432s and 5332s including with a major. Unbalanced hands can be 5422 or 6322 / 7222 but otherwise have a singleton/void. For the record the rest of the opening structure is: Pass = 0-6 or 16+ Unbal or 17+ Bal1C = (10)11-15, 4+H, unbal, can have longer minor1D = (10)11-15, 4+S, unbal, can have longer minor1H = 7-10 Any shape1S = 11-13 Bal1NT = 14-16 Bal2C = (10)11-15 5+/4+ Both Minors2D = (10)11-15 6+ Diamonds, No Major2H = (10)11-15 6+ Clubs, No Major2S = Weak, 5 or 6 Spades2NT = 5-8 5+/5+ Majors3x = Pre It is obviously a HUM, and the responses can be as HUM as much you like. (I live in New Zealand, so obviously I can play this at my local club). Complicated / Memory issues shouldn't be a problem - but don't go overboard if you don't need to :-) Thoughts / ideas welcome please :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olien Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Well, over an opening pass, couldn't you possible use the non-forcing pass version of moscito 3rd/4th seat opening bids? Maybe something similar to: 1♣ = 0-7(8) any or 11-13 BAL or any 17+1♦ = 4+♥ 9-16 (or whatever range you like)1♥ = 4+♠1♠ = ♦ or both minors1NT = 14-16 balanced2♣ = 9-16 6+♣ no 4Metc... After the 3rd seat 1♣:1♦ = strong option1M = 3+M, 0-6 HCP1NT = both minors, 0-6 HCP2m = 6+m, 0-6 HCP After 1♣-1♦, not sure what would be wise here, but here's my idea:1♥ = 0-7 any 1♠ = 11-13 BAL, sets up GF and now O can relay beginning with 1NT1NT+ = 16+ HCP, using whatever relay steps you desire. Since the 6-level is safe now, the lost space isn't really lost. It may even be better after 1♣-1♦ to play that 1♥ shows 11-13 BAL or a strong hand and other bids are in the 0-6 range, but seems to chew up a bit of room. After the transfer openings, play the relay bid by opener shows the strong option and establishes a GF and relay away. May not be best, but might be something that can be built off of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattias Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 I've played pass as 0-7 or 16+ for a while. Our responses are like this:1♣ 0-7(8 bal) or 16+1♦,♥,♠ 8-15 natural1N 9-152♣ 8-15 5+, may have a 4 card major on the side2♦,2♥,2♠ weak2N weak both minors Over 1♣ opener bids 1♦ with 0-7 and otherwise bids as after 1♣-1♦ in your favorite strong club system. If opener is 16+ we assume responder is 0-7. If both hands are 16+ responder has to do something extraordinary at some point. Over p-1♣-1♦ responder passes with 0-7 and other bids show 16+. I know this isn't the moscito responses, but it adds a nice symmetry. The other interesting part is the wide ranging notrump response. This isn't really a problem since opener either wants to force to game or signoff. Over the other bids opener can make a single raise with 5-7 and all other bids show strong hands. I guess you would have a relay and break the relay with minimum unbalanced hands. I guess the main things I want to say are: Play 1♣ as 0-7 or 16+Don't have small ranges for the other bids since opener can not really have an invite. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 I would be more concerned about how to respond to the first seat 1♥ opening than to the first seat pass .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 I've played pass as 0-7 or 16+ for a while. ...Question: say the auction goes Pass(0-7 or 16+)-2♠(by opps)-Pass-Pass;-?, does this mean opener must bid when the strong hand type risking 2NT or the three level on 16-17s? Compare with a big club system, 1♣(16+)-2♠(by opps)-Pass-Pass;-?, now opener passes most of the 16-17 hands and the 18s balanced, and bidding shows extras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunch3nt Posted May 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 I would be more concerned about how to respond to the first seat 1♥ opening than to the first seat pass .... We have been playing 1H as 7-10 any shape for almost 10 years - responses (and escapes) well sorted. It is a big winner. We actually play 1S as relay over it (up 2 steps), but natural would probably work just as well. Question: say the auction goes Pass(0-7 or 16+)-2♠(by opps)-Pass-Pass;-?, does this mean opener must bid when the strong hand type risking 2NT or the three level on 16-17s? Compare with a big club system, 1♣(16+)-2♠(by opps)-Pass-Pass;-?, now opener passes most of the 16-17 hands and the 18s balanced, and bidding shows extras. Yes the opener passer does need to balance with the strong hand all of the time. There is a big gain though. When opener in a strong club system passes, and LHO bids 2S, responder doesn't know whether their partner has 0-6 or 7-10 HCP. In our system responder assumes partner is 0-6 and thus does no act on those borderline hands. A big advantage. Mattias - Good advice thank you. Those principles 1C is 0-6 or 16+, and other bids can be wide-ranging both make good sense. Olien - Agree with the transfer openings in 3rd/4th with opener relaying with the strong hand - right up my alley. Agree P-1C; 1D being the strong hand and 1H response being weak. I would get rid of that 11-13 NT out of 1C though. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olien Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Yeah, getting the weak NT out of 1♣ is clearly right. I just had a mental block about the fact that opening passer can't have an invite. So, a 3rd seat 1NT as 9-16 should work OK. I might recommend that if 3rd seat opener is 9-13 or so with a 4-card M, that they be able to choose to open by showing the M rather than being forced to open 1NT. Will help decrease penalties, and if they do nail you after you open 1N, will increase the likelihood that the opponents have an M game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Too much in 16+ unbal. Spades-1suiter,H1,D1,C1; Spades+Hearts,S+D,S+C,H+D,H+C,D+C; 3-suiter not-S,-H,-D,-C. That's 14 cases.!Even unmolested, how do you untangle these?Opponents 'fun' you (not a bid that helps you evaluate), now untangle?What of balanced missing a stop(their suit unstopped)?Your T/O Dbl as 3-suits missing theirs? Or bal missing their stop?Or first step in 2-suiter?Use 1C(F1) with picture rebids for some of these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattias Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Question: say the auction goes Pass(0-7 or 16+)-2♠(by opps)-Pass-Pass;-?, does this mean opener must bid when the strong hand type risking 2NT or the three level on 16-17s? Compare with a big club system, 1♣(16+)-2♠(by opps)-Pass-Pass;-?, now opener passes most of the 16-17 hands and the 18s balanced, and bidding shows extras.Yes, opener needs to act now with the strong hand. This is a clear drawback compared with strong club systems. Opening the 8-10 point hands helps to make up for this though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 I'd open the balanced hands 1D, either nat/bal or just bal. Opening 1N in third when you "know" you have no game on is putting your neck on the line, even NV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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