Phil Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Who gets the charge for this awful slam? North: AKTxxx Axx J xxxSouth: QJxx Qx AQ9 Kxxx 1♠ - 2N*3♦ - 3♠3N** - 4♣4♥ - 4N5♦ - 6♠ 2N is boring old Jacoby3N is Serious Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rduran1216 Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 North, partner has effectively denied the A of clubs, so 3NT over 3S looks really bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 I dont understand north's bidding with a minimum. south has a dead minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahydra Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 For North, if you were pessimistic 3D could be considered an overbid. It's not crazy though because normally a splinter means "if you have a good hand and not much wasted in the splinter suit, we have slam", which is the case here. However 3NT is a HUGE overbid with the 7 loser, minimum HCP hand. For South (assuming 3S is stronger than 4S), given he has a minimum with a wasted DQ 3S is an overbid. After both partners overbid it's no wonder the auction spirals too high. :( I'd say 60% blame to North, 40% to South. ahydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OleBerg Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 50/50, but both players bid atrociously. Until 3♠ it is ok, but both players have then given their hands full justice. And then some. 3NT??? If you absolutely want to overbid, bid 4♥, showing you lack a club-stopper, and only intermidiate values. 3NT has no technical merit over 4♥ 4NT??? (Assuming, like ahydra, that 3♠ is stronger than 4♠). Partner has not asked for a diamond stopper, (assuming 3♦ = splinter), but simply checked that you had a club-stopper. No reason to get in his way, if he has a plan. It is illustrating, that on the combined hands, 4♠ is down on a rainy day. Both players could have got a 100% for a bad score, if their partner has had his bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 south is close to bidding 4♠ over 3♦, but I Can live with 3♠. I never played serious 3NT but I imagine that if you can have 20 counts still, it means that if you are qualifying 11 counts into serious then 85%+ of the hands are serious tries wich is very bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 I'd give 100% to both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 North's bidding was optimistic to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Depending on style the 3♠ bid can be considered correct. 3NT on the other hand is aweful. I blame North at least 80% of the blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Depending on style the 3♠ bid can be considered correct. 3NT on the other hand is aweful. I blame North at least 80% of the blame.Interesting. I think this thread is biased against North. I would blame South much more than North.North was certainly optimistic in the bidding, but he does have 1) a singleton2) a sixth trump3) 3 key-cards. Of course North is minimum in the HCP department, but these are the ingredients for a slam on minimal values.North had every reason to be optimistic. Give partner ♠xxxx,♥Kx,♦Axx,♣AKQx and 7♠ looks great. Substitute the ♦A for a small card or the ♣A for the ♣J and 6♠ is still almost lay-down. You are not likely to reach these slams, if North does not push. What does South have after a Jacoby raise? 1) a single key-card2) the queen of trumps3) A lot of rubbish and no source of tricks I can not imagine that a competent North would stop below 6♠ when that is a good contract opposite the South holding after South cue-bid 4♣.South 4NT bid (instead of 4♠) was a clear error in judgment. 80% to South. Rainer Herrmann 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 yay, I (almost) agree with rhm! I think 3NT is quite silly, but 3♠ was worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Give partner ♠xxxx,♥Kx,♦Axx,♣AKQx and 7♠ looks great. Substitute the ♦A for a small card or the ♣A for the ♣J and 6♠ is still almost lay-down. You are not likely to reach these slams, if North does not push. How can that hand not be virtually a slam drive opposite a singleton diamond? Then keycard will let you almost count 13 tricks (north will show the queen). The hand without the ♦A is also clearly worth another slam try to me ; if north bids 4♥ non-serious you will probably get there. But I do agree that south's bidding was worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcphee Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 North needs to stop playing serious 3NT. While some may argue S should drive to 4S I do not agree especially when playing serious 3N. First the S player did not bid 3N which I assume would also be serious. This knowledge alone should prevent N from searching for a pot of gold. On the auction presented S should just bid 4S after the H cue bid, 4N showed quite the imagination. I would blame north 90% south 10%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Does everyone except me know what 3♠ meant? Over 3♦, responder could cue-bid, bid 3NT, bid 3♠, or bid 4♠. Presumably 4♠ is the worst of the four. If 3♠ is the next weakest, North shouldn't make any sort of slam try. If 3♠ is the strongest action, North has a pretty good hand, and is worth 3NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayin801 Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 If N is unlimited then maybe 4♠ wasn't allowed and 3♠ was just marking time? If 4♠ was allowed with South I would have bid that with AQx in partner's shortness and a mediocre minimum otherwise. That having been said, 4♥ must describe North's hand perfectly after 3♠: a pretty hand with minimum high card values, diamond shortness, a heart control, and no club stopper! And it's an even better if 3NT is serious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) North needs to stop playing serious 3NT. Or define it differently. Maybe what we play in situations where game is forced in a Major and we are still at the 3-level isn't "serious 3nt", if this hand is. We use it to let out the secret that we have a huge hand, not previously shown. Normal cuebidding with decent normal hand (courtesy cue, if you will), simple game with weak opener; and 3NT with heretofor undisclosed 18+ opener. If playing a big club system, then opener might never be the one to use 3NT in a strong sense at all. AKTXXX AKX X QJX would be a 3NT bid over 3S in my world. That looks serious to me. Edited May 5, 2011 by aguahombre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 BTW, I see nothing wrong with South's 3S bid. It allowed North to bid 3NT if he had my example hand, above. In this case, it allowed North to abuse the bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Interesting. I think this thread is biased against North. I would blame South much more than North.North was certainly optimistic in the bidding, but he does have 1) a singleton2) a sixth trump3) 3 key-cards. Of course North is minimum in the HCP department, but these are the ingredients for a slam on minimal values.North had every reason to be optimistic. Give partner ♠xxxx,♥Kx,♦Axx,♣AKQx and 7♠ looks great. Substitute the ♦A for a small card or the ♣A for the ♣J and 6♠ is still almost lay-down. You are not likely to reach these slams, if North does not push. What does South have after a Jacoby raise? 1) a single key-card2) the queen of trumps3) A lot of rubbish and no source of tricks I can not imagine that a competent North would stop below 6♠ when that is a good contract opposite the South holding after South cue-bid 4♣.South 4NT bid (instead of 4♠) was a clear error in judgment. 80% to South. Rainer HerrmannYou're right that North has a nice hand, but it's not worth a serious 3NT imo. He can also just cuebid 4♥ which shows his hand VERY nicely: still slam interest (the points you make), no ♣ cue and a singleton ♦. South will already know enough not to try for slam, a ♣ lead could already beat the contract. Note that South has already denied a ♥ control by bidding 3♠, so in order to get to a makeable slam South needs a lot of extra's to cover all the ♣ losers and at least 1 ♥ loser. With all these extra's, South will move over 4♥ for sure. South is pretty much obligated to cuebid after the serious 3NT. If he just signs off in 4♠ then North may have an awkward decision to make if he has his values but 2 quick losers in ♣ for example (AKTxxx-AKx-J-Qxx is definitely possible). I agree with you that South should've bid 4♠ instead of 4NT. The ♦ cue is already known, so there's no reason to go past 4♠. Bidding 4♠ here would show he's absolutely minimum. So, there are 3 key moments:- 3♠: this can be argued, but playing serious/frivolous 3NT I prefer to save space. Although he's absolutely minimum, South denies a ♥ cue and is temporizing. For me, 3♠ acts like a frivolous 3NT because South can also start cuebidding immediately. This way opener can signoff, show light slam interest, or show serious slam interest, after which responder can re-evaluate his hand. Either way it's still possible to cuebid at 4-level, which you can't by bidding 4♠.- 3NT: the hand can't be considered a hand with serious slam interest imo, after South denied a ♥ cue. Big blunder imo. Better (imo) would be 4♥, which shows light slam interest and shows he's afraid of ♣s.- 4NT: South should've bid 4♠ to deny any further interest. 80% to North is perhaps too high, but I won't go under 65%. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 I would go with South, the Jacoby bidder, as most at fault. Although I don't know what agreements the pair has about the 3♠ call Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Rainer said: 1) A singleton And then I though singleton is the worst holding you can have when you have shown shortness. But what do I know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted May 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Does everyone except me know what 3♠ meant? I hope this is part of the discussion. Personally, I think 4♠ should mean: "your 3♦ call just converted my hand into a dead minimum (or less)". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 It doesn't make much sense to discuss what 3S means. Just make an agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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