Fluffy Posted May 3, 2011 Report Share Posted May 3, 2011 all vul IMPs ♠K962♥A72♦853♣Q94 1♣!-(1♥)-1NT!-(2♥)-pass-(pass)-2♠-(pass)4♥-(pass)-?? 1♣=16+ any1NT=9-14 balanced with stopper in hearts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted May 3, 2011 Report Share Posted May 3, 2011 4S, I have minimum HCP with the worst possible shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 4S, I have minimum HCP with the worst possible shape.But the best possible heart holding. This is a whole trick better than Kxxx KJx xxx Qxx. Also, the opponents have been fairly quiet, despite their 9-card fit, suggesting that the suits will break. It's a shame that we're playing the spades - AQxx x AKxxx AJx would make a good slam from partner's side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 What would dbl/3♥/4♥ mean round before from partner ? It's difficult to assess the problem without knowing the answer to those questions.It seems to me that partner is likely in lower range now so I signoff in 4♠ but I think that other ways of playing that makes sense too. Just very difficult without any prior discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfa1010 Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 It's a shame that we're playing the spades - AQxx x AKxxx AJx would make a good slam from partner's side.Well, I'm not so sure about that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted May 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 What would dbl/3♥/4♥ mean round before from partner ? It's difficult to assess the problem without knowing the answer to those questions.It seems to me that partner is likely in lower range now so I signoff in 4♠ but I think that other ways of playing that makes sense too. Just very difficult without any prior discussion.We have no agreements on what things do specifically mean after we made a forcing pass at the 2 level. I doubt many pairs do. However partner made a splinter and this is very basic stuff. A question that arises on this problem is: When partner makes a splinter that forces us to either sing off or go to the 5 level, what percentage of the time should we move on? Do we need a hand just above the average hand, or something in the 30-40% best hands is needed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 By FTL lore we have 25+ working points for an SST of +1. That means 11 tricks should be there if opener is on the lower end for his splinter. Seems like a slam try is in order, but there's no room for making one. Besides, it is likely pard isn't very interested in slam and is just passing the bucket. Finally, if all this still wasn't enough to bid 4♠, how about AQJxxAKxxKxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 Well, I'm not so sure about that...Yes, it wasn't much of an example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted May 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 It was kinf of a 50-50 slam you have to guess trumps for no losers to bring it home, partner had ♠A108xx♥x♦KQx♣AKJx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 partner had ♠A108xx♥x♦KQx♣AKJx Why didn't he bid 2♠ round before ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdeegan Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 :D 4♠ is easy. Give partner 4-1-4-4 and 16 HCP and count your losers. For slam partner needs to produce two additional tricks even if all the suits split normally. With such extras, he may bid some more. I just noticed the actual hand with 17 HCP and a 5th spade. He won't bid anymore, but it's only a 50-50 contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Why would partner make a slam try with a 4144 16-count when he knows that we have wasted values in hearts and a maximum of 14? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Why didn't he bid 2♠ round before ? He would probably have been happy to sit for a double had we done so. If he bid spades next, we will probably be able to guess the general nature of his hand (bad suit, good defense, good playability for other strains). Presumably fluffy and his partner play a double would be penalty by either side since they're in a forcing auction, so this is the equivalent of Xing 2H for takeout planning to bid spades next, seems perfect to me (side note: I now much prefer takeout Xs in strong club auctions even when in a force). Bidding over 4H is crazy in my opinion. I once made a joke that I think people bid more often over a splinter with xxx and a complete minimum than with KQx and the same values. Of course that is absurd, but my point is that people go too crazy upgrading for the "perfect holding," and too crazy downgrading for the bad holding. We still need overall values and tricks to make a slam. Ok, so we have Axx of hearts, the best heart holding for this auction. That's great. We also have the complete minimum in a SIX point range. We also have the worst shape (I think even 42(43) is worse in this case), a doubleton minor would be a true asset worthy of note. We don't even have the trump ten or jack which would be good if we're planning to ruff 2 hearts in dummy. At the end of the day, our hand is well below par. I would much rather have KJTx QJx Ax Qxxx which has a horrible heart holding, which I can just see people "downgrading". That is just a much better hand and it isn't close. Bidding anything other than 4S is just ludicrous to me, it is just another case of thinking too much about your heart holding and not enough about the rest of your hand over a splinter. If I had the space to last train here and I could, I wouldn't and also wouldn't consider that to be close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Why would partner make a slam try with a 4144 16-count when he knows that we have wasted values in hearts and a maximum of 14? How about AJxx x AKxx AKxx? There is a fine hand, well within the right to slam try in this auction. Slam is just terrible. If what we have is all partner needs for a slam, it's likely he should have taken another route. This is a good example where we have all working cards, no wastage at all, and we cannot make a slam because we simply do not have enough values. Even your own example from this thread of: "AQxx x AKxxx AJx" Is an awful slam. You said it was "not much of an example" but it seems pretty telling to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 How about AJxx x AKxx AKxx? There is a fine hand, well within the right to slam try in this auction. Slam is just terrible. If what we have is all partner needs for a slam, it's likely he should have taken another route. This is a good example where we have all working cards, no wastage at all, and we cannot make a slam because we simply do not have enough values. Even your own example from this thread of: "AQxx x AKxxx AJx" Is an awful slam. You said it was "not much of an example" but it seems pretty telling to me. I wasn't arguing that we should move, but only that we shouldn't be playing partner for a 4144 16-count. And my poorly constructed example wasn't supposed to be a reason for moving, but a comment on what we might have missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 4S, I have minimum HCP with the worst possible shape.But the best possible heart holding.That's not correct. The best possible ♥ holding is actually more like xxx or xxxx, the Ace doesn't help much and would be better placed in a side suit. I agree with 4♠ btw, if I had ♥xxx or similar I might make a move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 That's not correct. The best possible ♥ holding is actually more like xxx or xxxx, the Ace doesn't help much and would be better placed in a side suit.Do you also think we have 9 points more than a minimum, and four more spades than we might have had? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Do you also think we have 9 points more than a minimum, and four more spades than we might have had?Apparently you don't agree with my statement, but it's a well known fact that opposite a splinter you better have no values rather than an Ace. Let me prove it to you with an example:Say your partner has AQJT8-3-AKQ-K52. If you have K962-A72-853-Q94 (the example hand), slam has absolutely no play unless you find ♣JT - good luck with that. If you have K962-742-853-AQ9 on the other hand, slam is cold. All I did was switching ♥A with a ♣. The only reason not to call you any names is that we already showed a ♥ stopper, so on this hand it's the best holding, except perhaps JTxx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted May 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 He surelly agrees with your statement that it would be better to have ♥xxx Frederick, but he disagrees on the current hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 He surelly agrees with your statement that it would be better to have ♥xxx Frederick, but he disagrees on the current hand.Then lets keep it at that... ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Apparently you don't agree with my statement, but it's a well known fact that opposite a splinter you better have no values rather than an Ace. Let me prove it to you with an example:Say your partner has AQJT8-3-AKQ-K52. If you have K962-A72-853-Q94 (the example hand), slam has absolutely no play unless you find ♣JT - good luck with that. If you have K962-742-853-AQ9 on the other hand, slam is cold. All I did was switching ♥A with a ♣. The only reason not to call you any names is that we already showed a ♥ stopper, so on this hand it's the best holding, except perhaps JTxx.Uh, the reason Andy said it's best possible holding is of course exactly that we already promised a heart stopper. A post of "Sorry, I missed that we promised a stopper already" would be more adequate than lecturing Andy about the merits of xxx vs Axx opposite a stopper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Do you also think we have 9 points more than a minimum, and four more spades than we might have had? Funniest thing I've read on the forums in a long time, well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jh51 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Apparently you don't agree with my statement, but it's a well known fact that opposite a splinter you better have no values rather than an Ace. Let me prove it to you with an example:Say your partner has AQJT8-3-AKQ-K52. If you have K962-A72-853-Q94 (the example hand), slam has absolutely no play unless you find ♣JT - good luck with that. If you have K962-742-853-AQ9 on the other hand, slam is cold. All I did was switching ♥A with a ♣. But would you rather have K962-742-853-AQ9 or K962-A42-853-AQ9? In the latter case you have a grand slam and the former a small slam. If you are saying that it is better to have the Ace in a suit where one of you also has the King than in the splinter suit, that is true. But what I have read is the two holdings you want in the splinter suit are the Ace or no honor card. A King is of questionable value and a Q of no value in assessing slam possibilities. In your hand where the slam is cold, try exchaning the ♣Q with a ♥. Now there is no chance of a slam, where there was at least a small chance when the Ace was opposite a singleton. Recenly my partner and I bid and made a slam on 24 HCP when we each had Ace and small cards opposite a singelton in partner's hand. I opened, partner splintered, I cue bid my singleton and she bid the slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 But would you rather have K962-742-853-AQ9 or K962-A42-853-AQ9? In the latter case you have a grand slam and the former a small slam. The second hand has an extra Ace, ofcourse I want that hand... :blink: You're comparing apples and oranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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