Lebensohl in action

[bluecalm]

1NT 2♠ 2NT 3♠

4♣ = ?

 

2NT is lebenoshl - sign off with any suit.

 

What does 4♣ mean now ?

[ArtK78]

I suppose an argument could be made for pass or correct, but given that responder could have a very modest hand with a long red suit, 4♣ must mean that the 1NT opener has a very strong 6 card club suit. Why else would he venture to the 4 level as opposed to defend 3♠ undoubled? Certainly the 1NT opener cannot guarantee safety at the 4 level in what could be an eight-card fit (although a nine-card fit should be expected).

 

Also, opener might not be able to stand a 4-level action in a red suit by responder (as unlikely as that may be).

[gwnn]

d n e

 

i suppose it could be 1444... ?!

[Phil]

Clearly p/c, but I've never heard of a "Lebensohl" 2N always being "sign off in any (sic) suit".

 

How can a 1N opener venture to the 4 level with only one strain in play?

[bluecalm]

Clearly p/c, but I've never heard of a "Lebensohl" 2N always being "sign off in any (sic) suit".

 

Interesting, so what is treatment you are familiar with ? (assuming std lebensohl, no transfers etc.)

[kayin801]

It means "I like -800 as a score"

 

Partner still gets another chance, I don't see why we need to make a call right now when partner could have trash.

[Phil]

Interesting, so what is treatment you are familiar with ? (assuming std lebensohl, no transfers etc.)

 

In standard Lebensohl, I would expect a 2N call on a hand like AQx, Qxx, Kxxx, xx - the 13th card can be anywhere.

[bluecalm]

In standard Lebensohl, I would expect a 2N call on a hand like AQx, Qxx, Kxxx, xx - the 13th card can be anywhere.

 

Oh, we are talking about completely different treatment then. In Poland we use "lebensohl" to describe 2NT bid which is a signoff in a suit below opponents suit and sometimes have strong hands mixed in (like 4OM without/with stop in their suit). We use it after double over weak two bids and after overcalls after our 1NT opener. I thought it's standard I am very surprised if it's not.

[JLOGIC]

Bluecalm, a lot of people use lebensohl to distinguish between 3N bids with or without a stopper. Some use it to distinguish between stayman bids with or without a stopper.

 

Anyways, playing your system 4C is pass or correct for the suit. I do not think this is an impossible bid, I would do it with xx KQx AJTx AKxx or something, if partner could compete to 3 in any suit I could certainly raise him to 4.

 

The 1N opener might also bid 3N on a hand like Ax xxxx AQxx AKx, again if partner was bidding 3 of a minor 3N must have a reasonable shot, and if partner was bidding 3H I would raise to 4.

[Fluffy]

Oh, we are talking about completely different treatment then. In Poland we use "lebensohl" to describe 2NT bid which is a signoff in a suit below opponents suit and sometimes have strong hands mixed in (like 4OM without/with stop in their suit). We use it after double over weak two bids and after overcalls after our 1NT opener. I thought it's standard I am very surprised if it's not.

I also though this was standard and I am also very surprised. If you don't play transfers here, what do people bid with ♦KQ10xxx and out otherwise?

[gnasher]

xx KQx AJTx AKxx

What would double show?

[JLOGIC]

I think double should be penalty. I even think a penalty X is the most likely hand type of the 3 that would want to bid. Sometimes you're blessed with 2 trump tricks and AK A or something, or even better.

 

In the last spingold my partner doubled on that auction after opening a WEAK no trump lol. I think he had AKJT of trumps and an ace.

[whereagles]

The are two bidding principles that can be used to sort this out.

 

1. He who limits his hand in terms of shape lets pard choose the strain.

2. He who limits his hand in terms of strength lets pard choose the level.

 

In this case opener doesn't know the strain, so he must be prepared for whatever strain pard comes up with. Opener must thus have playing strength to 1 level higher than what pard was commiting the partnership to.

 

This points at 4♣ being a pass/correct bid with a spade doubleton (or even singleton!) and an offensive type of hand.

 

However, this isn't as clear-cut as one might think since for many people the DOUBLE of 3♠ shows precisely that type of hand, described above. In this context 4♣ might show something like a 1336, i.e. "I can play your strain, but have nice clubs as well."

 

HOWEVER, in case you're not yet sufficiently confused, there is another bidding principle that applies:

 

3. Undiscussed bids are natural

 

So in practice, I think opener is more likely to come up with a 6322 and an ache to be declarer!!!

 

Conclusion: it's anyone's guess. It probably depends more on the type of pard than anything else.

 

- By the unlucky expert it's a 1444 or thereabouts

- By Mr Smug it's clubs

[bluecalm]

Thanks guys. During the hand I thought double couldn't be penalty (cause we in general don't play too much penalty doubles around here) so 4♣ has to show clubs. I now changed my mind to double being penalty and 4♣ pass/correct. This is also what my partner had in mind bidding 4♣. As is happens opponents took their 1700 on the hand as I raised clubs and we ended up in 3-3 fit doubled. Good thing it was bbo ;)

[Fluffy]

yeah good thing it was BBO lol, I bid and made 6♣ yesterday for a fantastic 940, wich losed 20 IMPs when 2 star players at the other table bid to 5♣X-11 3200 :P.