bin Laden

[kenberg]

In terms of repercussions, I don't know what they will be and neither does anyone else. Some are perhaps better placed to make a guess. But I doubt that someone planning to blow himself up for Allah will change his mind, and I doubt that someone who previously had no such plans will suddenly develop them. But since I have never planned to blow myself up for anyone I can't say that I have a strong insight into their thinking.

 

But there could be other repercussions. I have been too busy too watch much, but certainly there is concern about the future of US-Pakistan relations. If I have this right, OBL was living in a specially constructed compound in the midst of a number of military facilities. I can allow that they did not know OBL was there, but presumably someone is asking questions along the lines of "Just what the hell did you think that it was?". And then we moved in to attack. Didn't some of the Pakistan military notice attack helicopters coming in for a raid? Osama is right there, we are attacking, and the Pakistanis are watching the show saying "Gee, I wonder what's up"? Seems a little embarrassing.

 

Here is another thought. Suppose you are in the Pakistan military and you have been chummy with OBL. Stupid Americans haven't a clue. Oops. How long have they been watching that compound?

 

I really have no idea of what happens next but a little imagination suggest quite a few possibilities.

[PassedOut]

is it just me, or is it suspicious that there is no images of bin laden death yet and his body is supposed to have been already buried?

Obama rejected the proposal to display bin Laden's head on a pike in front of the Pentagon. Instead he will produce a long form death certificate sometime in the future.

[hrothgar]

Maybe I missed something, but what does the dentention center in Guantanemo have to do with this operation that led to bin Laden's death?

 

bin Laden was tracked down by following a courier.

According to the New York Times a detainee at Gitmo provided this name to the US four years ago.

 

The standard set of idiots on the right are already boviating that this

 

1. Demonstrates that Gitmo was necessary

2. Validates torture

3. Shows that Obama was wrong in wanting to close down Gitmo two years ago

 

Note: The Washington Post claims that the couriers nickname was originally learned between seven and nice years ago and Gitmo is never mentioned.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/how-the-us-found-and-finished-bin-laden/2011/05/02/AFXO8jZF_story.html

 

Like most of Jimmy's "contributions" he is mindlessly parroting the Faux New talking point d'jour.

[kenberg]

It may be a little more complicated. The cited articl by Ignatius reports that

 

The trail that led to bin Laden’s hideout in the town of Abbottabad, about 75 miles north of Islamabad, began between 2002 and 2004 with the CIA’s interrogation of al-Qaeda “high-value targets” at secret CIA sites overseas. Several detainees mentioned the “nom de guerre,” or nickname, of one of bin Laden’s couriers.

[/Quote]

 

Although this paragraph does not mention enhanced techniques, secret overseas sites might well suggest such. Further, in the next paragraph,

 

Some of the detainees who confirmed the courier’s nickname were subjected to “enhanced interrogation techniques,” the CIA’s formal name for what is now widely viewed as torture.

[/Quote]

 

 

The print version of the article in my home edition of the Post includes references to waterboarding. I suppose that unless a person is there it might be difficult to know exactly what took place, and the waterboarding statement does not appear in the online version. I wouldn't call it a wild guess, however.

[hrothgar]

 

It may be a little more complicated. The cited article by Ignatius reports that

 

 

Few comments on the "Gitmo" angle

 

Civil libertarians such as Greenwald who critize Gitmo do so on a number of grounds

 

1. A large proportion of the detainees have done anything that warrants detention, let alone torture

2. Gitmo has produced enormous amounts of blowback across the world

3. The same information could have been collected using other means

4. Widespread / systematic violation of civil rights by the US makes impossible to ever subject detainees to a fair trial

 

Reading between the lines of the Washington Post article

 

1. We tortured a bunch of people

2. This produced actionable information

 

We won't ever know definitively whether bin Laden could have been captured had torture not been applied.

 

Let's assume that he couldn't...

 

From my perspective, its far from clear whether ends (killing/capturing bin Laden) justify the means...

[PassedOut]

From what I read, the operation was very well planned and executed. The US president can't do it by himself, but he can certainly mess it up by himself. I'm pleased that our current president got it done.

good thing he didn't shut down gitmo, eh?

Okay, I'll bite. Why is that a good thing?

[jjbrr]

Sure. Osama's dead, so there will be no more terrorist attacks anywhere. In particular, there will be none against the country that killed him. No more terrorists to find, so why not bring 'em all home?

 

:lol:

 

:rolleyes: thanks. that thought never would have occurred to me.

 

is it just me, or is it suspicious that there is no images of bin laden death yet and his body is suposed to have been already buried?

 

it's just you. osama was someone who liked his followers to know that he was very much alive. 100% if he's still alive now, he'll release a video of himself holding up the "Rot in Hell" newspaper headline. That would be bad for us.

 

Obama's not dumb enough to risk his re-election on something like this. You can put away your tinfoil hat.

 

Meanwhile, allegedly the team that raided Osama's mansion and pulled the trigger is a group of america's finest. I don't think they're in the business of posing with Osama's body to post on facebook. Images and video aren't going to be leaked any time soon and certainly not a day or two after it happened, so no, it's not suspicious.

[JLOGIC]

Conceivably they could have captured Osama and faked his death *cue jack bauer*.

 

I mean, whatever, Obama has promised DNA evidence within a few days, and supposedly he went with this risky operation in order to have conclusive evidence that Osama was dead (rather than just bomb the ***** out of the place). If it doesn't come ever I would be suspicious, but for now I don't think it means anything.

[blackshoe]

You may see a picture of one of the men involved in this. You may meet one somewhere. You will never know he was one of those involved. Well, you might — if you join SEAL Team Six. B-)

[Phil]

Conceivably they could have captured Osama and faked his death *cue jack bauer*.

 

I mean, whatever, Obama has promised DNA evidence within a few days, and supposedly he went with this risky operation in order to have conclusive evidence that Osama was dead (rather than just bomb the ***** out of the place). If it doesn't come ever I would be suspicious, but for now I don't think it means anything.

 

NPR reported this AM that State is considering whether or not to release video evidence of his killing.

 

The pros are that it puts to rest the conspiracy theories. Well, probably not; many would claim the video is doctored.

 

The con is that you give a few extremist groups extra reason to hate us.

[ggwhiz]

 

 

The con is that you give a few extremist groups extra reason to hate us.

 

This word doesn't belong when talking about these people.

 

I'm satisfied to take the governments word for it as a snipe hunt for the conspiracy nuts and to avoid collateral damage to a few dozen aid workers in the wrong place.

[hrothgar]

yes, you missed something

 

Sullivan has a great post today address the Gitmo meme

 

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/05/the-republican-spin.html

[hrothgar]

yes, you missed something

 

And another one...

 

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/senate-intel-chair-torture-did-not-lead-to-bin-laden-in-any-way.php

 

Looks like Jimmy was full of *****, like usual

 

(Really might want to do a better job vetting your "sources")

[kenberg]

I am willing to discuss many things. Whether the killing of OBL was faked is not one of them. You can go on without me on that one.

 

Now back to the torture. I took an earlier post of Richard's as discounting the possibility of waterboading and such as having played a role:

Note: The Washington Post claims that the couriers nickname was originally learned between seven and nice years ago and Gitmo is never mentioned.

 

http://www.washingto...8jZF_story.html

 

Like most of Jimmy's "contributions" he is mindlessly parroting the Faux New talking point d'jour.

[/Quote]

 

One could say this post never really says waterboading played no role but in the context of the discussion I think my understanding of the post is not a stretch.

 

I an much more in agreement with the follow-up post (just a few up so I won't reproduce it all) which addresses competing arguments.

 

In my view, the moral crisis of waterboarding comes front and center here. I have never found the argument that the evidence is unreliable all that convincing. As stand alone intelligence, sure, you wouldn't want to act on it. But it can point in directions to look, especially if the results come from more than one source, as it sounds like it did in this case. If the information were never of use, there would be no waterboarding and hence no debate. I really doubt they do it for amusement. Not many, anyway.

 

Where we draw the line is a tough call. I think every one of us has a line somewhere. Torturing his children to death in front of him to get him to talk is over everyone's line, I brashly say.

 

For now, it seems that waterboarding played a role in this hunt. Maybe a critical role, maybe not. The end result is something to cheer, some of the methods were not so pleasant. We have to live with the implications of this. Myself, this gives me the shudders.

[PassedOut]

For now, it seems that waterboarding played a role in this hunt. Maybe a critical role, maybe not. The end result is something to cheer, some of the methods were not so pleasant. We have to live with the implications of this. Myself, this gives me the shudders.

Whether torture is effective or not, those who advocate torture are moral cripples. Without exception.

[nige1]

Whether torture is effective or not, those who advocate torture are moral cripples. Without exception.

IMO politicians aren't all moral cripples but it's wrong to protect your rights by denying them to others. Arguably, the Patriot act attacks what it seeks to defend. Rightly in my view, future historians will deplore other means that we use to accomplish our ends, such as concentration camps, torture, and rendition.

[luke warm]

Like most of Jimmy's "contributions" he is mindlessly parroting the Faux New talking point d'jour.

It may be a little more complicated. The cited article by Ignatius reports that

many different sources (probably even fox news, though i need to check there to uphold the objectivity of my mindless "contributions") have verified that torture was used in obtaining information that led to his death

 

Okay, I'll bite. Why is that a good thing?

well since you said, "From what I read, the operation was very well planned and executed. The US president can't do it by himself, but he can certainly mess it up by himself. I'm pleased that our current president got it done." i simply took you at your word, that you were pleased obama "got it done"... since gitmo was supposedly a part of getting it done, it must have been a good thing

 

And another one...

 

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/senate-intel-chair-torture-did-not-lead-to-bin-laden-in-any-way.php

 

Looks like Jimmy was full of *****, like usual

 

(Really might want to do a better job vetting your "sources")

"To the best of our knowledge, based on a look, none of it came as a result of harsh interrogation practices," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee in a wide-ranging press conference.

 

sounds pretty definitive to me

 

Meanwhile, Rumsfeld himself has denied that torture played any role in finding bin Laden:

 

“It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”

 

if rumsfeld said it, that settles it

 

For now, it seems that waterboarding played a role in this hunt. Maybe a critical role, maybe not. The end result is something to cheer, some of the methods were not so pleasant. We have to live with the implications of this. Myself, this gives me the shudders.

better check your sources

 

Whether torture is effective or not, those who advocate torture are moral cripples. Without exception.

IMO politicians aren't all moral cripples but it's wrong to defend your rights by denying them to others. Arguably, the Patriot act thwarts what it seeks to defend. Rightly in my view, future historians may deplore other means that we use to accomplish our ends, such as concentration camps, torture, and rendition.

yes, but that's just your opinion... if it were stronger, in an "objective morality" sense for example, it would be more convincing

[PassedOut]

IMO politicians aren't all moral cripples...

Agreed. Many politicians join in rejecting torture even though they disagree with each other completely on other issues.

[Winstonm]

good thing he didn't shut down gitmo, eh?

 

Is it just me or does this sound precariously close to staking a claim to situational morality? I guess one should expect nothing less from such a known moral relativist. :P

[PassedOut]

yes, but that's just your opinion... if it were stronger, in an "objective morality" sense for example, it would be more convincing

Of course everything I post is my opinion, otherwise I would not post it. Not completely sure what your point is here, but I'll take a stab at answering anyway.

 

There is no direct connection between religion (or belief in god) and morality. Note that many folks who believe in god and profess Christianity support torture, while many others who believe in god and profess Christianity do not.

 

If you ever give an opinion, that will be "just your opinion" also -- nothing "objective" about it.

[Cyberyeti]

To Luke Warm and the people he quoted - the BBC has certainly taken as fact that torture was used (I believe "Enhanced interrogation techniques" is the euphemism the politicians over here are using).

 

I just wonder, given the disgust we had for the celebrations in some parts of the Arab world after 9/11, whether they're equally disgusted by some of the celebrations in the US after this.

[kenberg]

Disgust? I just thought that many people of the Arab world made their feelings known about planes being flown into the Twin Towers. And we made our feelings known about the killing of OBL. It's called a frank exchange of views. Some like to see planes flown into buildings, some like to see the man who planned that event get a bullet. It's all in the way you were brought up.

[Winstonm]

To Luke Warm and the people he quoted - the BBC has certainly taken as fact that torture was used (I believe "Enhanced interrogation techniques" is the euphemism the politicians over here are using).

 

I just wonder, given the disgust we had for the celebrations in some parts of the Arab world after 9/11, whether they're equally disgusted by some of the celebrations in the US after this.

 

For my part, I did not feel any urge to celebrate the death of another human being. It is to me simply an end to a long and sorry tragedy. My ire is directed at the delusional belief systems that created the situation in the first place. It is the 21st century, people - isn't about time we demanded at least as much evidence for our mystical beliefs as we do for a lack of contaminents in our food supply?

 

A worldwide Food and God Administration may have saved us all from this sorry episode.

[kenberg]

As I learn more, I find more to celebrate. It's easy to think that failures are due to bad planning and successes to good planning. It seems clear that there were many choices to be made, and on the basis of good but not certain information. It could have gone wrong, this time they went right. Back on page 1 of this thread I said that my first reaction was hooray. I'll stick with that, and make a note to myself for the future that when things go wrong sometimes the plan is as good as when things go right.

[luke warm]

Agreed. Many politicians join in rejecting torture even though they disagree with each other completely on other issues.

actually i was speaking to nigel... your posts often come across as statements of fact rather than opinion... most everyone else uses 'imo' when they post an opinion... this should put this to rest, leon penatta said 'enhanced yada yada' were used.in this article

 

Is it just me or does this sound precariously close to staking a claim to situational morality? I guess one should expect nothing less from such a known moral relativist. :P

it's just you, i think... i was asking him a question based on his comment that obama did something right

 

To Luke Warm and the people he quoted - the BBC has certainly taken as fact that torture was used (I believe "Enhanced interrogation techniques" is the euphemism the politicians over here are using).

 

I just wonder, given the disgust we had for the celebrations in some parts of the Arab world after 9/11, whether they're equally disgusted by some of the celebrations in the US after this.

not quite the same level of disgust, no, since a mass murderer was brought to justice... having said that, i didn't join anyone is a show of joy, although (like the majority of americans) i was pleased it was over