Learning precision, concerned about limit raises

[SenseiCAY]

Hi, all,

 

First post here. I'm just starting to learn precision after a brief stint with 2/1 and about a year and a half of SAYC.

 

This question bugged me a little bit when I was playing SAYC, and now bugs me royally as I'm learning a precision system.

 

In SAYC and 2/1, a jump raise to 3♥/3♠ over a 1-level major opener is a limit raise showing 10-12 points and 4-card support, as I'm sure you know. With only 12-13 and otherwise balanced, opener would pass. With 14, it's a little sticky, but I'd probably raise to game (this is the part that bugged me...if responder has only 10 points, game is borderline, but still a good gamble, I think), and with 15+, we're going to game, at least. With 3-card support and 10-12 points in 2/1, the responder would bid a forcing 1NT and then go to 3 of the major on the next bid.

 

So in our precision system, major openings are 11-15 HCP and 5 cards. If my partner opens a major, what is my limit raise range? I've heard 10-13 with 4-card support, but that seems wide to me. Obviously with only 11, opener passes. However, 12 facing 10 is a shady game bid, while 12 facing 13 is a good bet for game, so it's very possible to miss game if I pass what I consider to be a minimum hand facing a limit raise, especially since there's no way to ask the responder to be more specific. Intuition tells me that 11-13 might work better, since it's effectively the same as 10-12 facing a 12+ HCP opening hand.

 

So here's the simple question: for you precision players, what's your limit raise description, and if not 11-15, what's your major opening range?

[Free]

First of all, let me point out to you that not everyone bids game only with 25 HCP or more. That being said, it depends on how sharp you want your games to be.

 

Invites like this basically give opener 2 choices: pass or bid game. In a precision context, slams are pretty much gone after 1M-3M, so it's easier. You divide opener's range into 2 groups: hands that won't accept game invite, and hands that will accept the invite. After this, you decide how strong you want your invite to be. You can divide 11-15 in many ranges, but since many precision players like to open with 10 from time to time, I'd suggest to split the range as 10-12 and 13-15. Now, if you always want to have 25HCP combined, you'll only invite with 12-13HCP. If you accept that sometimes you'll reach game with 23HCP or 24HCP, then you can invite with 10-12HCP/11-12HCP/11-13HCP/... Note that you'll bid game with 13HCP or 14HCP, depending on your invite. So you can also reach light games if opener and responder are both minimal. So, as I said, it depends on how sharp you want your games to be.

 

Note that this post is purely based on HCP. Distribution makes up for many HCP and should always be taken into account when evaluating your hand.

[straube]

Hi, all,

 

First post here. I'm just starting to learn precision after a brief stint with 2/1 and about a year and a half of SAYC.

 

This question bugged me a little bit when I was playing SAYC, and now bugs me royally as I'm learning a precision system.

 

In SAYC and 2/1, a jump raise to 3♥/3♠ over a 1-level major opener is a limit raise showing 10-12 points and 4-card support, as I'm sure you know. With only 12-13 and otherwise balanced, opener would pass. With 14, it's a little sticky, but I'd probably raise to game (this is the part that bugged me...if responder has only 10 points, game is borderline, but still a good gamble, I think), and with 15+, we're going to game, at least. With 3-card support and 10-12 points in 2/1, the responder would bid a forcing 1NT and then go to 3 of the major on the next bid.

 

So in our precision system, major openings are 11-15 HCP and 5 cards. If my partner opens a major, what is my limit raise range? I've heard 10-13 with 4-card support, but that seems wide to me. Obviously with only 11, opener passes. However, 12 facing 10 is a shady game bid, while 12 facing 13 is a good bet for game, so it's very possible to miss game if I pass what I consider to be a minimum hand facing a limit raise, especially since there's no way to ask the responder to be more specific. Intuition tells me that 11-13 might work better, since it's effectively the same as 10-12 facing a 12+ HCP opening hand.

 

So here's the simple question: for you precision players, what's your limit raise description, and if not 11-15, what's your major opening range?

 

I like to use the Modern Losing Trick Count as described by Ron Klinger for these types of decisions. Opposite a standard (12-22) 5cd major opening, I'd want my limit raise to show approximately an 8 loser hand. Opposite a 10(11)-15 opening, I'd want the limit raise to be 7 1/2 or so.

 

Points are more useful for non-fitting hands or balanced hands with an 8-cd fit.

 

I'd also suggest using Bergen raises or something like them so that you can give weak, constructive, and limit raises with four trump.

[blackshoe]

I seem to remember that when I first learned Precision, many years ago, the limit raise was described as "11-13 HCP".

 

Pretty much I agree with Free as to the mechanics. Like Straube, I do use the LTC when we have a known fit.

[SenseiCAY]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

 

I do understand that 25 HCP is not an ironclad requirement for game, and I'll look into Bergen raises and LTC.

[JLOGIC]

If you are 11-15 you can pretty much make limit raises with the exact same hands as you would over a normal 1M opener. There is no difference in 11-15 and 11-21 for this purpose.

 

If you are opening a point lighter in precision than you would in standard then you can up your LR range by about a point.