ATB, 2C redoubled

[han]

All vulnerable at IMPs, south dealt and the bidding went as follows:

 

p - p - 1H - 1NT

Dbl - p - 2C - p

p - Dbl* - Rdbl - all pass

 

First hand had a 5-2-2-4 11-count. Third hand had a 3-5-3-2 5-count. Double by second hand was takeout, the final pass by fourth hand was penalty.

 

Who was to blame?

[ahydra]

I assume "3rd hand" is the one who bid psyched 1H and then bid 2C? Could you clarify it with north, south etc?

 

If I'm right, all three calls by 3rd hand are insane and he totally deserved what he got. 1H on a balanced 5 count is stupid even in 3rd, 2C on a 2-card suit is just silly (why not 2H or even 2D) and rdbl, if for penalty, is well into mental-instutition territory. If the rdbl was for SOS then a small amount of blame can be attached to "1st hand" (south?) but I doubt he'll care given he should be looking for another partner at this point.

 

ahydra

[han]

Yeah third hand is the 1H psycher.

[JLOGIC]

Apparantly the first hand was spiteful of partner for psyching in third seat vul. That is the only way to explain his pass of an SOS redouble. I mean, lol at that. I don't know why you posted this hand han, some people are gonna be like OMG YOU PSYCHED YOU DESERVE WHAT YOU GET, I think you know that your partner shouldn't have passed the redouble.

[bluecalm]

spiteful

 

Probably he didn't realize what is going on. People who never saw this 2C and then SOS rdbl sometimes panic :)

Also this sequence is very bad for light 3rd openers (or for people who don't open 11's in first seat) because they often have us if 3rd opener is light as the balance of strength is easy to assess for them. I think good treatment is playing rdbl as $$$$$$ by 2nd hand here (after dbl of 1NT) and the best treatment is to play dbl as some kind of t/o and either open or shut up after 1NT now with balanced 10-11.

[Cyberyeti]

I blame first hand, open 1♠ and stop partner doing something stupid :)

[Siegmund]

Third hand.

 

I almost understand the psych, though 5 is a little heavy for it - better to be light enough you are sure there is a game to be stolen from the opps.

Ordinarily psycher exposes his stunt by passing whatever his partner bids even if it's forcing. Here the double put him in a bind... I can SORT of see why he's afraid to take his lumps in 1NTx. (He knows that's probably going to hurt, though as long as the result is 9 or 10 tricks, it won't hurt much.) I can't imagine why he redoubled 2Cx. After having ostensibly shown a minimum heart-club two-suiter, how can that redouble sound like anything other than "yes, I really do have better clubs than hearts... if they sit for it I'm going to make it opposite your 10-without-hearts, if they run you're welcome to double them in a misfit / raise me to 3C"?

 

At some point psycher has to quit bidding, or his partner is going to imagine progressively more exciting and shapely hands.

[gnasher]

Siegmund, can you give us an example of a hand which would be unwilling to defend 1NTx, willing to play 2♣xx, and willing to defend 2♦x or 2♠x?

[Siegmund]

If I heard 1H-then-2C-then-XX from p I'd be envisioning something along the lines of xx J9xxx A AQTxx or Kxx Jxxxx - KQJxx. A point or two more or less is possible; a sixth club is possible. Lots of hands where you'd expect to beat 1NTx if partner led a club but an opening heart lead will not set anything up for us and we're light enough that we don't expect 1NTx to die of natural causes. Some of these hands might run from 2Dx or 2Sx while others might sit.

 

To be sure, a lot of the time 3rd hand has still made at least one bad bid... but how can he NOT have a heart-club two-suiter... so how CAN he have a willingness to hear his partner run to whichever pointed suit he likes better?

 

Do some of you who open a lot of ratty 8s and 9s in 3rd seat have an agreement that opener always pulls this double even when he is 5332? (If you do, are you alerting your 2C rebids?)

[Fluffy]

Justin already said it. SOS redouble is not totally obvious but very clear to me.

[Phil]

Doing things like passing an SOS redouble are some of the final chapters of a partnership that is nearly finished. I think there is frequently a pathological basis for making calls like this.

 

It isn't my style (rather I've never had the guts to try it) to try the "bid the short suit and redouble" as an escape mechanism, and I don't know that playing 2♥x'd is that great, but bringing back 760 / 1160 / 1560 is a sure loser.

 

BTW, it is a serious LOL to suggest that this redouble is to play.

[gwnn]

sorry misvoted. I somehow managed to vote for first hand when I meant third hand.

[mike gill]

In my experience screwing around red like this seldom seems to work out, even in 3rd seat. However, that is no excuse for 1st hand's actions.

[gwnn]

2♣ is just weird, i think 2♥ is much cleverer. anyway, I like the principle that if you psyche, you have to bear all responsibility of your actions

[JLOGIC]

Why is 2H cleverer than 2C? 2C might avoid getting doubled if passed out, and if it is doubled you can redouble and have the flexibility to get to a superior 2D or 2S that you would not have been able to if you had rebid 2H. If 2H is right, partner will still bid it over 2C. It is just much better to bid 2C.

[dake50]

Have y'all discussed 'psych' escapes?

How to SOS-Redouble out?

Don't spring this one on me fresh.

I'd decide SOS but not confident.

[Siegmund]

An....enlightening thread.

 

Running out to a 2-card club suit then SOS redoubling in direct seat, and having partner understand it, sounds to me like a really clever way to get busted (at least) twice on the same board, for a concealed partnership agreement (perhaps more than one of them) and a psychic control. I can see where it would have merit in a world where psychics were common and psychic controls were legal.

[gwnn]

Why is 2H cleverer than 2C? 2C might avoid getting doubled if passed out, and if it is doubled you can redouble and have the flexibility to get to a superior 2D or 2S that you would not have been able to if you had rebid 2H. If 2H is right, partner will still bid it over 2C. It is just much better to bid 2C.

What does 2♣ then xx mean? Sorry I hope you don't have to write 3500 words to explain but I don't understand very well, does it mean that "partner I don't think we're making 2♣" or does it mean "partner sorry but 2♣ was a short suit after all and I think we should look for another suit" ?

[han]

The way I see it, the choice to psyche in third seat vulnerable with a balanced 5-count is a poor one. However, I view the 2C bid and the following redouble as good bridge. For example, as some may already have pointed out, it was the only way to get to the perfectly acceptable 5-3 spade fit.

 

The idea that a psycher is always responsible for any bad result that might follow makes no sense. Perhaps people who write such nonsense mean to say that they don't like psyches, but that is something very different. I consider it healthy to try something unusual every once in a while, and the main BBO bridge club is a perfect venue for such experiments.

[JLOGIC]

What does 2♣ then xx mean? Sorry I hope you don't have to write 3500 words to explain but I don't understand very well, does it mean that "partner I don't think we're making 2♣" or does it mean "partner sorry but 2♣ was a short suit after all and I think we should look for another suit" ?

 

When you bid 2C it means "I have opened a very light hand in third seat, and hope to play 2C if you have a fit (or 2H)"

 

When you XX it says "please bid something else."

 

It is impossible to have a penalty XX of 2C. You pulled 1N X! You announced an extremely light opener, otherwise you would pass 1N X rather than running. If you somehow had a penalty XX of 2C, they would always have a good runout. Plus, what are the opponents doing doubling you? Why do you need to XX in order to get a good score? It makes no sense to play redoubling 2C as penalty, I cannot even help but think "lol" at that concept in a setting where we've already announced a super light opener and the opponents are now doubling us.

 

I do not even understand your question, obviously we would not XX any time we think 2C is down. If we think clubs is our best fit, we'd just pass, even if we thought we were going down.

 

Running out to a 2-card club suit then SOS redoubling in direct seat, and having partner understand it, sounds to me like a really clever way to get busted (at least) twice on the same board, for a concealed partnership agreement (perhaps more than one of them) and a psychic control. I can see where it would have merit in a world where psychics were common and psychic controls were legal.

 

lol.

 

Hanp you are just a troublemaker for posting this hand since you knew exactly what it would become!

[JLOGIC]

Blah, just realized it was Siegmund I loled :(

 

Ok, how about this:

 

When partner makes a penalty double of 1N and you run to 2C, you obviously did not have a full opener, else you would just defend. This is not a controlled psyche, it is bidding logic.

 

So this might suggest that bidding logic has suggested a psyche, but that is not even true, since you are certainly allowed to open light in third seat (not this light) that are too weak to defend 1N X (like some 8 count) without it being a psyche as long as you disclose it, there is no problem.

 

If you are going to run with 5332, the only reasonable thing to do is to bid 2C. Otherwise how do you get to the right spot? I agree that if this auction comes up again or if you have discussed it, you should alert it as "could be scrambling," becuase that is your implicit or explicit agreement. Again, this is not a controlled psyche, because opening with a 5332 or a 5224 8 or 9 count in third seat and then running is not a psyche.

 

That being said, even without that agreement, the only reasonable thing to do is to run to 2C. This is exactly the same as bidding 1N after 1S X XX with 4144 and a 0 count. Of course, 1N could be natural, but you are fine playing 1N undoubled and if they do double, you can just XX and find the right fit. If partner has a strong hand, he should be able to use his brain to figure out what's happening. Again, if you have this agreement you should alert it, but it is fine to do it without the agreement and rely on bridge logic.

 

When you are running from them, and trying to just find the safest landing spot while you have no room, it would be dumb not to utilize bidding then redoubling as a resource, and it is simple any time you're fine playing the contract you bid undoubled.

 

Partner is going to assume we have the suit we bid, there is nothing wrong with that. The opponents might choose to just pass it out and let us play a silly fit vulnerable, that's why I would never open 1H with a 5332 5 count vulnerable. But why is partner not allowed to use his brain and re-evaluate when they double us and we redouble? It cannot be penalty, so it is SOS. If you think the SOS redouble is the controlled psyche, oh well.

[Flameous]

Should the same sort of tactics be used with 3541 or 4531? Unvul obviously. Here by bidding clubs we again manage to get the spades in to play what we don't get just by bidding 2♦. Psyche tactics are actually quite interesting, but there is sort of a fine line when they turn into psyche control so I guess they haven't really developed for that reason.