4 suit forcing action

[Flame]

we play 4st forcing at the 2 level as forcing, but even tho we had a probelem reaching slam with those hands.

we play polish club which mean 1d showed 5 card. [hv=n=sa543hq10dak432cq8&s=sqj7hakj87dq97ca7]133|200|[/hv]

1D-1H

1S-2C

2D- 3D

3NT - p

 

I thought 3d show fit and thinking of more and 3nt was just a bad hand so i passed.

My partner thought 2d show no club stop, and with the Qx of club, he thought he should bid 3nt now.

He might have a point because if i got Axx of club we should play 3nt from his side.

He thought i should bid something different then 3d, 3sp or 4d were his suggests.

I dont like 4d because its above 3nt, and i dont know what 3sp is but it doesnt seems like diamond fit.

How do we solve this ?

[Rebound]

How about 1♦ - 2♦ inverted, forcing ?

 

But I guess my answer would be to bid 4nt right over 2 diamonds, quantitative.

[Free]

2♦ inverted with a 5 card M and only a 3 card ♦??? :D :blink: Hmmmm :D

 

I would consider 4♦ at this moment as RKC ♦. Opener should have a 5 card by now, so small slam in ♦ might be possible, and if you get the good answers you might try 6NT...

[inquiry]

we play 4st forcing at the 2 level as forcing, but even tho we had a probelem reaching slam with those hands.

Do you mean you play 4sf to Game? In this case, north made a small error.

 

Over 3♦, I like a 3♥ bid. This can't be three card support (you missed chance to bid 2♥ twice with that). So this shows honor and one. Now the slam becomes much easier to bid, as south can evaluate the quality of the fit.. .and in matchpoints, you can manauever into your 5-2 heart fit for the higher scoring contract, or of course, into 6NT if you like in either case. I could imagine somehting like

 

1D-1H

1S-2C

2D-3D

3H-4C

 

And then whatever bidding methods you have after this.

 

Ben

[Flame]

Yes i ment GF.

I wanted him to bid 3h here, but he said 3d isnt a slam invastigation bid, its just showing a club problem and diamond fit looking for best game, and as he already denied a club stoper (he would bid 2nt with a club stops) his 3nt should show half a stoper in club.

The hand he thought i have is something like

xx

AJxxx

Qxx

Axx

 

Or

 

Jx

AKJxx

Qxx

Jxx

[luke warm]

is this crazy?

 

1d : 1h

1s : 2c

2d : 4d (rkc)

[the hog]

An incorrect Polish Club auction.

1D-1H

1S-2C

2D- 3D

3NT - p

 

2C is NOT 4th suit in every single PCsystem I have ever seen, it is Magister, (or checkback if you want to call it that).

 

Correct auction is as follows

1D-1H

1S-2C

2D- 3D

3H - 4C

4S - 4N

 

3D is gf. 3H shows dbn honour in H.

The auction you had shows what happens if you tinker with a comprehensive system. PC is an entity and any changes have ramifications down the track. You need to go back to basics here.

 

Ron

 

PS Just looked at Ben's auction after I posted this. Maybe he is a closet PC player. :)

[Flame]

Hey Ron i think you are wrong here, altleast according to WJ2000, 1d-1h-1s-2c is forth suit and not magister

I will quote from the WJ2000 file page 61

" Attention: The sequence

1d-1h-1s-2c

is not Magister but fourth-suit forcing - which is important for finding a club stopper.

"

[Flame]

is this crazy?

 

1d : 1h

1s : 2c

2d : 4d (rkc)

Its not crazy, just that i prefer to check for slam below 3nt, and also i dont usually use rkcb to check for slam, rkcb is for aces after you decided you have the slam value and only want to check that you dont have 2 aces missing. (if i dont miss 2 aces im always in slam)

I dont know maybe low level aces asking has another phylosofy, maybe you can land yourself in 4nt of something, or inv slam later, but its not my way of reaching slams.

[the hog]

Look at page 86 in Matula! Also look at WJ2005 notes. (In Polish however unfortunately).

[Flame]

Look at page 86 in Matula! Also look at WJ2005 notes. (In Polish however unfortunately).

I will one day , soon i hope.

Thxs.

[JAQPM]

In game situations (2/1,4th suit) I like to invert the meaning of Nt, so that 2NT is stronger than 3NT.so with this hand after 2D I would have bid 2NT showing 14+ and pard could ask for strength with 3C..replying up the line with 14-15.16-17.18+ and after ascertaing 32 HCP would have tried for Slam. does anyone think this has merit..I call it saab (slow arrival asking bid)

[Fluffy]

1♦-1♥

1♠-2♣

 

all right at this point you showed a 45, why rebid that 5 card ♦ suit when you have a good 2 card support for partner?.

 

1♦-1♥

1♠-2♣

2♦

 

3♦ is not asking at all about ♣, you ahve the 3♣ bid to show somethign in ♣ lookingfor helpon that suit, you have 2NT GF as a further ask as well if you needed, 3♦ is kinda big jump for not being natural and should be to loook for slam.

[helene_t]

Just looked at Ben's auction after I posted this. Maybe he is a closet PC player. :)

I would bid the same no matter what natural system we play. Then again, I might be a closset PC player, too.

[Flame]

1♦-1♥

1♠-2♣

 

all right at this point you showed a 45, why rebid that 5 card ♦ suit when you have a good 2 card support for partner?.

Don't you think 2h show 3 card support ?

1♦-1♥

1♠-2♣

2♦

 

3♦ is not asking at all about ♣, you ahve the 3♣ bid to show somethign in ♣ lookingfor helpon that suit, you have 2NT GF as a further ask as well if you needed, 3♦ is kinda big jump for not being natural and should be to loook for slam.

I think 3c would be natural GF with clubs.

[Fluffy]

Its kidna close, but how I answer 4SF is this way:

 

1: show 3 card support

2: raise 4th suit with 4 cards if below 3NT

3: show a stopper in 4th suit.

4: rebid your suits showing shape:

5: relook at the list and pick 1:

 

So you go to step 5, and restart, and then find that you have 2 card honnor support before rebidding your own suit, even you might consider showing a stopper before bidding 2♦, but since it will mak partner you ahve sing at the most in his suit its not a good option.

 

If I have 5♥+5♣ I bid 3♣ after 1♠ to show a GF 5-5.

If I have a 4♥+5♣ Gf I start with 2♣, not 1♥.

If I have 5♥+4♣ I would bid 2/3NT over 2♦.

[EricK]

If 2♣ is FSF, then opener might bid 2♥ IMO. If it is GF, then he should definitely bid 2♥.

 

You have already shown 5♦ and 4♠. Why not show your ♥ tolerance?

 

Eric

[Flame]

Its kidna close, but how I answer 4SF is this way:

 

1: show 3 card support

2: raise 4th suit with 4 cards if below 3NT

3: show a stopper in 4th suit.

4: rebid your suits showing shape:

5: relook at the list and pick 1:

 

So you go to step 5, and restart, and then find that you have 2 card honnor support before rebidding your own suit, even you might consider showing a stopper before bidding 2♦, but since it will mak partner you ahve sing at the most in his suit its not a good option.

 

If I have 5♥+5♣ I bid 3♣ after 1♠ to show a GF 5-5.

If I have a 4♥+5♣ Gf I start with 2♣, not 1♥.

If I have 5♥+4♣ I would bid 2/3NT over 2♦.

I dont agree with you fluffy on the relooking proccess, usually in situations like that you take the first bid and use it as negative bid, meaning i got no more shape, no support no stoper. maybe its a matter of style.

but i prefer to "cheat" on a low bid like 2d here, also i prefer o cheat in minor then major.

About the club bids, atleast for me, 1d-1h-1s-3c is invitational.

the only way (for me) to show club is bidding clubs later.

I think this style is not only mine but its the normal one, which still doesnt mean its he best one.

[junyi_zhu]

we play 4st forcing at the 2 level as forcing, but even tho we had a probelem reaching slam with those hands.

we play polish club which mean 1d showed 5 card. [hv=n=sa543hq10dak432cq8&s=sqj7hakj87dq97ca7]133|200|[/hv]

1D-1H

1S-2C

2D- 3D

3NT - p

 

I thought 3d show fit and thinking of more and 3nt was just a bad hand so i passed.

My partner thought 2d show no club stop, and with the Qx of club, he thought he should bid 3nt now.

He might have a point because if i got Axx of club we should play 3nt from his side.

He thought i should bid something different then 3d, 3sp or 4d were his suggests.

I dont like 4d because its above 3nt, and i dont know what 3sp is but it doesnt seems like diamond fit.

How do we solve this ?

The bidding may go like this:

1D 1H

1S 2C

2N(yes, who said 2NT should guarantee a full stopper:)) 3D

3H(high low support) 4C(cue)

4S(cue) 4N(RKC)

5D(3 or 0 KC) 5N

6D 6N(it's easy, isn't it?)

 

In your sequence, you still may find the slam if opener bid 3H over 3D, but it's

not very clear and he probably thinks 3NT might be the most possible contract.

So comparing with 2D, 2NT is really more descriptive.

[peefco]

♠ A543

♥ Q10

♦ AK432

♣ Q8

 

♠ QJ7

♥ AKJ87

♦ Q97

♣ A7

 

 

What do you think about that bidding ?

1D - 2H (GF with 6H or good 5)

2S - 3D

3H - 3S (I dont bid 3nt pard so I dont have C stopper or I'm interested in slam)

4D - 4NT

5C - 6D or 6NT if 3H means Hx

7NT - if we have one black king and pard said 6NT because... (its simple B) )

 

I agree with The_Hog 2C is a magister, so if we are not sure just make it simply.

SIMPLY BRIDGE - BETTER BRIDGE this is what saying one of the best polish trainers Ryszard Kielczewski.

[Flame]

♠ A543 

♥ Q10 

♦ AK432 

♣ Q8 

 

♠ QJ7 

♥ AKJ87 

♦ Q97 

♣ A7 

 

 

What do you think about that bidding ?

1D - 2H (GF with 6H or good 5)

2S - 3D

3H - 3S (I dont bid 3nt pard so I dont have C stopper or I'm interested in slam)

4D - 4NT

5C - 6D or 6NT if 3H means Hx

7NT - if we have one black king and pard said 6NT because... (its simple  :lol: )

I dont like strong jum overcalls, they are first very rare and second even when they apear they many time ,proves to be a waste of bidding space. Also as other rare tools people are not using it to its best effect since they lack practice.