glen Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 I agree this is a great site, well worth checking out.Welcome to bbf! What system do you currently play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabooba Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Burgay invented and played played a strong Diamond system; I played against this a bit. It was quite effective and had nothing to do with any forcing pass system. I think there are still some copies floating on the web. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 I agree this is a great site, well worth checking out. Welcome to bbf! What system do you currently play? Considering the sudden flood of new posters who don't make any other posts, i'd hazard a small bet on his playing the Jones diamond with his dad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrecisionL Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Interesting. I spent a lot of time analyzing a Strong Diamond System in the 1960s .... Revolution in Bridge, 1965, G. R. Nail and Robert Stucker, 325 pages, LCCC 65-26321 Nail played in the Bermuda Bowl in 1962, 1963. However, this system was not played by Nail in the BB. Italian Asking Bid influence and lots of memory work. Ahead of his time? 1NT = 14-162NT = 20-215-card Majors1C = Balanced or 5-cd minor, or unbidable Major1D = 16+ hcp and UNBALANCED I still prefer almost any Strong Club system .... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrecisionL Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) Burgay invented and played played a strong Diamond system; I played against this a bit. It was quite effective and had nothing to do with any forcing pass system. I think there are still some copies floating on the web. Yep, here is one reference: http://bridgewithdan.com/systems/Burgay.txt Don't forget Magic Diamond: www.bridgewithdan.com/systems/MagicD.zip Edited March 2, 2012 by PrecisionL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixOfWands Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 If you want to see a really good strong diamond system check out The Mirror Diamond System... www.strongdiamond.co.uk I've been playing this for some time with my son and it's brilliant! Anyone want to play it? I have full disclosure convention cards, Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 If you want to see a really good strong diamond system check out The Mirror Diamond System... www.strongdiamond.co.uk I've been playing this for some time with my son and it's brilliant! Anyone want to play it? I have full disclosure convention cards, NigelI wonder if you like it so much because of the constructive part, or rather because of the aggressive preempts? I think the latter, which hasn't got much to do with strong diamonds :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 You can also do a certain amount of damage with 1♣ and 1♦ potentially short and containing all the balanced hands and 1N big and unbalanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 In general, what is the supposed advantage of such strong diamond systems as opposed to strong club systems, or sttandard? It seems like a strong diamond system is nothing more than a standard precision 1C with a nebulous 1D but with 1D and 1C reversed and slightly different point ranges for the various opening bids. am I missing something here? -- *** I suspect the intent is to untangle little hands at the 1-level conveniently. Even trading space for strong hands.*** My personal take is that is backwards. Little hands need to get up on their fit; quits if no fit found quickly. If the 1C structure jumps to 3C/3D often to preempt opponents' Major, yet generally safe, that could work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 A flippant PS. I'm sure you could devise a decent system around a strong 1♥ opener - with I suppose 1m being a transfer to the majors and 1S being minors. Nobody is going to play it - but I'm sure it would be basically playable.Not sure how I missed this before but ETM has a module for a strong heart system that can be plugged into many other methods. I was designing methods around this concept myself before finding the ETM page. In the end I found that the system I ended up with was simply less efficient then the strong club method and therefore dropped the idea. I did indeed combine it with 1♣ = 4+ hearts and 1♦ = 4+ spades. As an aside, I found the following exchange hilarious reading it back:Please see Jones Strong Diamond for a full strong 1♦ system and explanation of the advantages of this. The website is based on ongoing database research which proves the potential of the strong 1♦.I agree this is a great site, well worth checking out.Considering the sudden flood of new posters who don't make any other posts, i'd hazard a small bet on his playing the Jones diamond with his dad.If you want to see a really good strong diamond system check out The Mirror Diamond System... www.strongdiamond.co.uk I've been playing this for some time with my son and it's brilliant! Anyone want to play it? I have full disclosure convention cards, Nigel If you check the "Jones Strong Diamond" link you will see it is identical to that of the "Mirror Diamond System". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 In general, what is the supposed advantage of such strong diamond systems as opposed to strong club systems, or sttandard? It seems like a strong diamond system is nothing more than a standard precision 1C with a nebulous 1D but with 1D and 1C reversed and slightly different point ranges for the various opening bids. am I missing something here? --I've always thought the aim of strong ♦ systems was to be very aggressive by using extremely light and descriptive 1M/2m openings (around 8-12). These are very common and allow for heavy preemption. It's also the range strong pass systems use. Every intermediate hand is put into 1♣. The biggest benefit of using a nebulous 1♣ instead of a nebulous 1♦ is that you can recycle your entire system after the sequence 1♣-1♦-... (1M/1NT/2m = same as opening, but a bit stronger) which is impossible after a 1♦ opening. That's in an ideal world where opps don't intervene ofcourse. As a result you up your strong range (say 18+) and put it in 1♦. Upping the range covers for the lost space compared to a strong ♣ opening and keeps your 1♣ range small enough and doesn't make it too small, a nice balance. Imo this approach respects some very good principles, and it looks like it's an attempt to replace strong pass systems. The 8-12 range covers around 1/3 of all hands. Every stronger hand is opened nebulous (you have 2 ranges, a strong pass system has only 1 range but stays lower). When you're planning on playing 1M around 11-15HCP and a wide ranging nebulous 1m opening, I'd definitely advise to play strong ♣. Playing a 16+ strong ♣ system is already hard enough, no reason to make it even harder by playing a 16+ strong ♦ system imo. And even by doing so, you don't use the advantages of the nebulous 1♣ opening to their full extend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrecisionL Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Keylime & I will be playing a Strong Diamond system with 8-12 hcp 4cd major opening bids @ the 1-level in the Naples Regional this month. (Zar 26 pt openings) The design goal is to improve partial and game bidding at the expense of the 16+ hcp hands which have a frequency of 9.8 %. This effort is bending our minds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Keylime & I will be playing a Strong Diamond system with 8-12 hcp 4cd major opening bids @ the 1-level in the Naples Regional this month. (Zar 26 pt openings) The design goal is to improve partial and game bidding at the expense of the 16+ hcp hands which have a frequency of 9.8 %. This effort is bending our minds. Sounds interesting. Please give us a trip report after its over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 PrecisionL: what do you do with 13-16 hands with a 5cM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Kungsgeten, I know Magic Diamond, and I hated it exactly because of this 1C opening. You could get terribly preempted in no time on hands where even Aunt Millie would find her major-suit fit. Opening 1C on hands like 5-5 majors is pretty awful. Yes, precision also opens 1C with a certain strength but there you have the safe knowledge that at least when you get in trouble you are strong so you can bid more freely as opener. Plus, 13-17/15-17 balanced comes up much more often than 16+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kungsgeten Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 PrecisionL: what do you do with 13-16 hands with a 5cM? You open 1C. You can check out Magic Diamond for a system like this. 1C = Any unbalanced 13-16 or 15-17 balanced1D = Strong1M = 4+ major (not 4333 or 4332), may have longer minor, 8-12 hcp1NT = 12-14 hcp2m = 6+ minor or 5 card minor and 4 cards in other minor, 8-12 hcp In the original Magic Diamond 2M and 2NT where used as multi two-suiters (Finnish Scissors): 2H = 5-5 hearts and clubs or 5-5 spades and diamonds, 8-12 hcp2S = 5-5 spades and clubs or 5-5 hearts and diamonds, 8-12 hcp2NT = 5-5 minors or 5-5 majors, 8-12 hcp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrecisionL Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 PrecisionL: what do you do with 13-16 hands with a 5cM? Open 1NT with a good 11-14 hcp. Open 1♣ with 15-16 hcp without 5 Controls (A=2, K=1), otherwise upgrade to 1♦ strong & artificial and a good 16 hcp or more with 5+ controls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kungsgeten Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Yes, I've played that 1C opening too (but in a forcing pass context). Just answered your question, but perhaps this isn't what PrecisionL uses (I realized that it was Free who described this kind of opening). The 1C opening is pretty bad, but the idea is that the weak openings should compensate. 1C worked out okay for us, but the knowledge of the risks made us change system. We also played in pretty weak fields, better opponents would probably bid more against his kind of opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmBrPotter Posted October 6, 2013 Report Share Posted October 6, 2013 The biggest disadvantage of strong ♦ systems is that the strong opening needs more HCP. A precision 1♣ opening can easily be 15+ or 16+HCP, while a strong 1♦ opening needs more (because the lack of space). This makes all limited openings less attractive imo. Partner and I play GCC compliant methods with 1♣ (11+ HCP) and 1♦ (15+ HCP) both artificial and forcing for one round. We sort out the "good" hands, "fert" hands, 3-suiters, and the "normal 1m" hands with opener's first rebid (usually). Since we open 1NT with balanced 10-14 counts and 1M with 4-card suits (but always unbalanced and either 1-suited or 2-suited), our 1m openings tend to be (1) hands that natural systems will open 1m with a real minor, (2) 5M4m and 5M5m two-suiters (Rebid the M and conceal the m with the first rebid.), (3) balanced hands with 15+ HCP, (4) 3-suiters, and (5) unbalanced strong hands with 1 or 2 long suits. Either a natural NT response to the 1m opening or the 1m opener's first rebid usually gets us into a natural auction with (1) opener captain in a NT sequence, (2) responder captain in a suit sequence, (3) responder captain in a NT sequence, or (4) opener announcing (with either a 1M rebid or a 2♦ rebid) a powerful 1-suited or 2-suited hand forcing to 3-suit. This very workable and even leaves all four 2-suit openings for weak two bids (or your favorite specialty opening two bid{s}). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrecisionL Posted October 7, 2013 Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 Results from Naples, FL Regional playing Strong Diamond with weak Major Openings 5 Sessions, won 9.5 MP and 2nd overall in B in 1 session out of 5. System did OK, no major flaws discovered in a sample of 130 hands. Scratched in every session. Analysis continuing .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrecisionL Posted October 11, 2013 Report Share Posted October 11, 2013 Plus, 13-17/15-17 balanced comes up much more often than 16+.15-17 balanced comes up 5-6% of the time (depends how you treat 5M332 hands) 13-17 balanced comes up about 12% 1C 16+ comes up 9.8% (playing 1NT openings < 16 hcp) Thus, much more often = 22% more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 Sorry, I meant "13-17 unbalanced or 15-17 balanced." How is it then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
campboy Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Sorry, I meant "13-17 unbalanced or 15-17 balanced." How is it then?13-17 any is ~22.70% and 13-14 balanced is ~5.93%, so "13-17 unbal or 15-17 bal" is ~16.8%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Thanks! Sorry for my laziness in looking it up.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spotlight7 Posted November 20, 2018 Report Share Posted November 20, 2018 Trying to say which is better out of strong ♣ or ♦ is a bit like saying which is better out of strong or weak NT. Or 5cM versus 4cM versus 5443 openings. People obviously have strong opinions about these things and mount some good arguments, but convincing sceptics with arguments that are truly encompassing and quantative (i.e. actually proving your point) is another matter altogether. One thing I would say in reference to someone else's comments in this thread is that it is often said that the 1M openings in strong ♣ are better because they are more limited (the 1♣ opener being a point or two less usually than 1♦ in a strong ♦ system). Well, I would say that this has merit in the uncontested auction. I would also say that, in the contested auction, having the 1M opener as relatively weak at its top end benefits the opponents in that it is a little easier to balance. So I think this argument is relatively weak - given that there are a lot of contested auctions. Nick A flippant PS. I'm sure you could devise a decent system around a strong 1♥ opener - with I suppose 1m being a transfer to the majors and 1S being minors. Nobody is going to play it - but I'm sure it would be basically playable. Reese played the Little Major in International competition. 1C=Hs, 1D=Ss, 1H=20+ and 1S=minor/minors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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