How normal is this weak jump overcall?

[gnasher]

953 J109432 10984 -

Favourable at IMPs

RHO opens 1C

[Zelandakh]

Is our agreement 0-11 or 5-10? or something else? Seriously, with some partners I have had this would be an automatic 2H and others would never consider bidding. It is normal if your agreement for a wjo includes this hand and abnormal otherwise. The same for bidding 3H fwiiw. The nebulousness of the 1C opening might have an influence for some.

[pooltuna]

anti%age

[han]

I would bid 2H.

[ggwhiz]

I would bid 2H.

 

Me too and as pointed out, it's normal in my regular partnership because we tend to bid 1♥ with any constructive hand.

 

I could vote anywhere from insane to a gross underbid in different casual partnerships.

[Phil]

This is a normal w/r preemptive jump overcall.

[AlexJonson]

Other - extreme overbid.

[MrAce]

LoL someone voted for "Conservative" :D

 

To me it is normal. But i would not be surprised if i get arrested with fellony charges for this in USA :) Because there are still a lot of folks here in USA who follows the "Roth-Stone" rules, where a preempt is actually a 1 opening (a good one) and in some cases leans towards a 2♣ opener!

[JLOGIC]

I agree with conservative. Many of my friends whose bridge I respect would tell me this is an automatic 3H. Personally I'd go with 2H but I am pretty conservative in these spots, I see how 3H could work well if you have the agreement that 3 is just a destructive bid. Having 3 spades and a club void as opposed to vice versa seems to argue for the more conservative 2H call.

 

Certainly I think it is closer to 3H than pass though, passing w/r is unthinkable to me.

[Free]

If you play an agressive style, 2♥ is conservative. If you're a wimp this is agressive. You can't judge this without knowing what style you're playing with your partner. With one of my partners this is a light 2♥, with another it's an obvious 3♥ overcall.

[mfa1010]

Conservative.

[Foxx]

I require fewer excuses than most to be heard in this kind of situation, but even I have my limits.

 

While I would always consider 2♥, I would only actually do it after a pretty strong cup of coffee.

[gwnn]

why not 3? :)

[barmar]

If you play an agressive style, 2♥ is conservative. If you're a wimp this is agressive. You can't judge this without knowing what style you're playing with your partner. With one of my partners this is a light 2♥, with another it's an obvious 3♥ overcall.

I think you (and several others) are answering the wrong question. The question is how would you describe the style where you make a WJO with that hand -- normal, aggressive, something else?

 

Saying that it's normal if that's your style is a tautology.

[Cyberyeti]

Has a heart to spare :)

[Free]

I think you (and several others) are answering the wrong question. The question is how would you describe the style where you make a WJO with that hand -- normal, aggressive, something else?

 

Saying that it's normal if that's your style is a tautology.

Luckily I voted to the correct question :)

[Trinidad]

I would not bid 2♥. A 2♥ bid promisses something. Not much, but something. Having said that, I would happily bid 3♥. That is a bid that doesn't promiss anything other than a couple of hearts.

 

In other words, 2♥ is an underbid because you should bid 3♥ and it is an overbid since you don't have the values that a 2♥ bid requires.

 

Rik

[MrAce]

I would not bid 2♥. A 2♥ bid promisses something. Not much, but something. Having said that, I would happily bid 3♥. That is a bid that doesn't promiss anything other than a couple of hearts.

 

In other words, 2♥ is an underbid because you should bid 3♥ and it is an overbid since you don't have the values that a 2♥ bid requires.

 

Rik

 

Can u tell me where did you get this idea that says 2♥ promisses something and 3♥ not ? They are both preempts only difference is the number of cards in the suit bid. 3 promisses more cards than 2, thats pretty much it.

[JLOGIC]

Can u tell me where did you get this idea that says 2♥ promisses something and 3♥ not ? They are both preempts only difference is the number of cards in the suit bid. 3 promisses more cards than 2, thats pretty much it.

 

Not everyone thinks this way. The idea that 2 is constructive and 3 is destructive for NV openers has a lot of support (zia for instance). I do not know if this idea applied to overcalls has a similar level of support.

[Trinidad]

I would not bid 2♥. A 2♥ bid promisses something. Not much, but something. Having said that, I would happily bid 3♥. That is a bid that doesn't promiss anything other than a couple of hearts.

 

In other words, 2♥ is an underbid because you should bid 3♥ and it is an overbid since you don't have the values that a 2♥ bid requires.

 

Rik

Can u tell me where did you get this idea that says 2♥ promisses something and 3♥ not ? They are both preempts only difference is the number of cards in the suit bid. 3 promisses more cards than 2, thats pretty much it.

If you mean to ask me where I got this idea than it is hard for me to tell where I got it. It is just what I was taught when I learnt to play bridge. So, unfortunately, I don't have a quote or a reference.

 

My comment was a reply to a poll. These usually ask for opinions. I gave my personal opinion, reflecting my own style (and that of my partners). I didn't intend to pose anything as absolute truth.

 

Nevertheless, there is some reasoning behind the style that bids at the two level promiss something whereas bids at the three level can be made on garbage. Let me start by defining what I started calling "something". (After all, there is a difference in making a quick comment and coming up with a reasoning.) In this context, I meant "something" in HCPs.

 

We all know that there are many evaluation methods around. They all have their good sides and they all come with flaws. Counting HCPs works well for balanced hands and is meant to estimate how many tricks our side can take. A weak two opening (I will get to WJOs later) typically deviates from a balanced hand pattern by 1 card only. On top of that, it tells partner that the HCPs are in the long suit. This bid is somewhat preemptive and somewhat constructive.

 

A preempt at the three level has less HCP requirements. After all, the hand is now very unbalanced and counting HCPs doesn't work very well. Instead it is more defined in terms of trick taking potential, ODR or similar.

 

This reasoning for opening bids extents to weak jump overcalls. After all, the question whether you are overcalling or opening doesn't really influence the fact that 6322 patterns are still relatively balanced and can be evaluated reasonably well with HCPs.

 

On the other hand, other factors do come into play. We are now already in a competitive auction whereas for a preemptive opening (at the 2 or 3 level) we were merely anticipating competition (and therefore preempting it). This means that the hand needs to be more evaluated in terms of ODR (how many tricks can we take in our contract compared to how many tricks they can take in their contract) and less in terms of how many tricks we can take only.

 

Therefore, the picture shifts a little: HCPs become less important and ODR becomes more important. As a consequence, there are hands that you wouldn't open with a weak two, but would make a weak jump overcall with. These hands have a good ODR, but too little constructive value to open with a weak two.

 

However, the fact that the picture shifts a little doesn't mean that we tear down the constructive differences between bids at the 2 level and 3 level completely. In general, WJOs at the two level still have a more "value flavor" than the "ODR flavored" WJOs at the three level. And when I need to chose between a 2 level WJO and a 3 level WJO, I will take the flavor of my hand into account.

 

That is the style that I am playing. But, of course, your style may be different.

 

Rik

[Free]

Can u tell me where did you get this idea that says 2♥ promisses something and 3♥ not ? They are both preempts only difference is the number of cards in the suit bid. 3 promisses more cards than 2, thats pretty much it.

I play this style with one of my F2F partners when NV vs V and only for 1st seat openings. 2-level is constructive, 3-level is destructive. We play 2M as normal weak two with a 6 card M usually, and 3X = 0-7HCP with 5+X (don't count on 2 tricks!). The 3-level openers are really random because there's no suit quality or extra distribution necessary. You can just open 3♠ on 65432-32-432-432, but it won't be AQ432-32-432-432 (too good). It has worked well so far, even at imps.

 

So the idea exists, and works pretty well. However, when applying this to 2nd and 3rd seat openings it doesn't work that well. We learned this the hard way. You preempt your partner too often (2nd seat) or you overbid the hand (3rd seat, so partner usually has some values) when opps know already too much.

 

Applying this to overcalls is also risky imo, because opps already know a lot from their partner. So I'm not a fan to use it for overcalls either.