Psych or "creative bid"?

[Free]

All NV (I think), you have the following hand:

 

Ax

Q9x

AT8x

K8xx

 

The bidding goes (partner starting):

 

pass - 1♣ - 1NT - Dbl

pass - pass - 2♦ - Dbl

all pass

 

1NT overcall usually shows 15-17 and balanced.

 

Remark: I don't ask for any opinions about the auction, just how a TD looks at this 1NT bid. For those who are interested: I made my 2♦*= for +180 for a top against 2 of the best players in my local club :) They didn't complain about me psyching, just called the TD to note a psych because we were only allowed 1 in that session.

[skorchev]

imho it's a psychic bid but not exactly. I would vote for "pure psychic bid, but close to creative", but there is no such answer so I voted for the 1st variant. :)

 

 

Stefan

[Dwayne]

what's the problem? Why was the tournament director called ?

 

As long as either you or your partner don't have a history of such actions then I can't see that your opponents should feel as though they are entitled to any redress.

 

I believe the result on the hand is irrelevant too.

 

Seems like just another case of a successful psyche getting up the nose of someone.

 

Dwayne-a-rama.

[EricK]

what's the problem? Why was the tournament director called ?

 

As long as either you or your partner don't have a history of such actions then I can't see that your opponents should feel as though they are entitled to any redress.

 

I believe the result on the hand is irrelevant too.

 

Seems like just another case of a successful psyche getting up the nose of someone.

 

Dwayne-a-rama.

If they don't report the psyche, how is it to be determined whether they have a history of such actions?

[EricK]

A couple of questions:

 

What system do you play over (1Z) 1NT (X)? i.e. Did your partner's pass show or deny anything?

 

Would you have rescued yourself if your spade suit had been AK instead of Ax?

 

Eric

[the hog]

If 1N is 15-17, then this overcall is not a psyche, just a silly bid. A psyche is a gross mistatement of values.

[helene_t]

I agree with Ron. Also, a psychic bid is something you do in order to mislead opps (or partner).

[Free]

A couple of questions:

 

What system do you play over (1Z) 1NT (X)? i.e. Did your partner's pass show or deny anything?

 

Would you have rescued yourself if your spade suit had been AK instead of Ax?

 

Eric

Nothing was alerted.

 

After 1X-1NT-Dbl-?, partner will just consider it as a normal 1NT opening, with garbage stayman and transfers. Pass is not conventional or anything, but RDbl would be considered as penalty. (I know, not the best stuff, but that's what we played)

 

With ♠AK I'd probably not even bid 1NT... :(

[helium]

what's the problem? Why was the tournament director called ?

 

As long as either you or your partner don't have a history of such actions then I can't see that your opponents should feel as though they are entitled to any redress.

 

I believe the result on the hand is irrelevant too.

 

Seems like just another case of a successful psyche getting up the nose of someone.

 

Dwayne-a-rama.

Free explaned that in the first post, this was a turney whit only one psyke alowed so thats why opps reported it.

[TimG]

It's not a psyche -- it would have to be a gross misdescription to be a psyche. That does not mean it should not be reported. If you have a tendency to "mis-count" your hand like this, it will become a partnership agreement and it would no longer be proper to describe the overcall as 15-17.

 

IMO, these kinds of partnership tendency issues are far more worrisome than psyches simply because a psyche takes everyone by surprise while a tendency takes the opponents by surprise, but not partner. It really is a disclosure issue, far more so that psyches.

 

Tim

[JRG]

As Ron pointed out, 1NT is not a psyche, it is a "deviation" (from your systemic agreements). To be a psyche, it needs to be "A deliberate and gross mistatement of honour strength or suit length." -- this is from the "Definitions" section of the Laws.

 

However, if you "shade" your 1NT overcalls frequently enough that your partner may have come to expect that, then it is a no-no.

 

I suspect here that they assumed (since you pulled 1NT Dbl) that you had an out-and-out psyche -- they were wrong!

[EricK]

A couple of questions:

 

What system do you play over (1Z) 1NT (X)? i.e. Did your partner's pass show or deny anything?

 

Would you have rescued yourself if your spade suit had been AK instead of Ax?

 

Eric

Nothing was alerted.

 

After 1X-1NT-Dbl-?, partner will just consider it as a normal 1NT opening, with garbage stayman and transfers. Pass is not conventional or anything, but RDbl would be considered as penalty. (I know, not the best stuff, but that's what we played)

 

With ♠AK I'd probably not even bid 1NT... :D

If this had been online and you had been asked the range of your 1NT what would you have said? 15-17? 16-18?

 

If, as you say, you wouldn't have opened a hand which falls in your stated range, but would if it falls outside then IMO you are on rather dodgy ground.

 

Even if the 1NT is not a psyche, I would say that the 2♦ bid may be. Everyone knows that a 1NT overcall may be made on a weak hand with a long suit into which you rescue yourself. That is a gross distortion of what you actually have.

 

Eric

[Free]

Eric, it seems like we are talking in other directions. With the exact same hand but with the ♠K as a bonus, I'd overcall 1NT without any problem. On the other hand, if I had a similar strength and distribution but with both ♠A and ♠K, then I wouldn't overcall 1NT since my honours would be too concentrated in a short suit.

 

And to state the range of my 1NT overcalls, I quote myself:

1NT overcall usually shows 15-17 and balanced.

 

I also have a remark on what you're saying:

Everyone knows that a 1NT overcall may be made on a weak hand with a long suit into which you rescue yourself. That is a gross distortion of what you actually have

Since 1NT isn't alerted as "possible weak hand with escape suit", it would be a psych if I had such hand. Perhaps I psyched a psych here with the 2♦, but that's not what this is all about. However, it's indeed an interesting bid :D

[DrTodd13]

This 1N is not even close to a psyche. It is picking the closest bid that most closely matches this hand where other bids describe it in even worse ways.

[inquiry]

I join the chorus that this is not a pscyh. However, some players announce this 1NT bid as 15-18, and then strech with 13, and 14 often, with no alert of this agreement (in fact, they will say their agreement is 15-18). Anyone who makes this bid more than very occassionally light, should include that in an alert.

 

BTW, the opponents can have no complaint that you were light, after all, are they made they doubled you and you made when you WERE LIGHTER than you could have been? They wanted you to be stronger? So this would be a no harm, no foul ruling in all regards.

 

Ben

[hrothgar]

All NV (I think), you have the following hand:

 

Ax

Q9x

AT8x

K8xx

 

The bidding goes (partner starting):

 

pass - 1♣ - 1NT - Dbl

pass - pass - 2♦ - Dbl

all pass

 

1NT overcall usually shows 15-17 and balanced.

 

Remark: I don't ask for any opinions about the auction, just how a TD looks at this 1NT bid. For those who are interested: I made my 2♦*= for +180 for a top against 2 of the best players in my local club :D They didn't complain about me psyching, just called the TD to note a psych because we were only allowed 1 in that session.

I wouldn't call 1NT a psyche, but rather a case of very bad judgement.

However, the 2D rebid may very well classify as a psyche.

 

For what its worth, I think that you have a clear cut pass over a 1C opening.

its all fine and well to roll the dice every once and a while, however, you really need to consider whether the odds are in your favor.

 

To me, a radically understrength 1NT overcall without an escape suit is asking for -300 opposite the opponents part score or -500 opposite their game. Equally significant, you're not going to be particularly happy if partner decides to hit teir 2M contract...

[inquiry]

I wouldn't call 1NT a psyche, but rather a case of very bad judgement.

However, the 2D rebid may very well classify as a psyche.

 

For what its worth, I think that you have a clear cut pass over a 1C opening.

its all fine and well to roll the dice every once and a while, however, you really need to consider whether the odds are in your favor.

Spoken from experience, no doubt... I gues this looks familiar. You and free had a similar hand with similar great results last month :-) here it is

 

MP-818      hrothgar    Dlr: South

Board 3    S T63      Vul: E-W

              H K52     

              D T63           

S 972        C AK96      S K854     

H Q986                    H AJT7     

D J75      free          D A98     

C J43      S AQJ        C T2       

              H 43       

              D KQ42     

              C Q875     

 

02-Aug-04  4:25:30 PM

First  4:24:25 PM, Last  4:30:25 PM

 

East    South    West    North   

        hrothgar        free         

        Pass    1D      1NT     

Pass    3NT      Pass    Pass   

Pass   

 

Opening lead: D5    Result: Made 3

Score: 400         

 

Of ciourse if EAST (llooks like west in this display) begins the heart NINE, but he doesn't know what to lead, so leads his partners bid suit.

[Free]

Lol, seems like I love to overcall 1NT after a 1m opening with 4-4m :D And it pays off apparently...

 

The reason I started this poll is because my RHO is a very well respected TD! I had a little discussion about this being rather a creative bid than a psych, since I'm balanced, have a stop in his suit, and only 2 points off. He said that if it would only be 1 point it would've been no psych at all, but now it's a clear deviation from the system. I agreed with him to end the discussion and to stay friends (and the fact that he still knows the rules much better than I do, so he has the benefit of the doubt imo), but I got him to apologize to shout for the entire room "TD psych!!!" :D He admitted that was wrong, since my next opponents will know I won't lie anymore and my previous opps didn't have that luxery.

Funny thing: the next table I sat down, one of my opps told me "and no psych anymore, or we'll call the TD" :blink: Funny moments!

[spwdo]

Lol, seems like I love to overcall 1NT after a 1m opening with 4-4m  :)   And it pays off apparently...

Free my friend, if u love to overcall 1nt after 1m opening i as td think this starts to sounds according to your own words a little like an hidden agreement .

 

 

but then again i wonder what an alert like"partner is know to spyche against 1m opening " woud do to your opps when you have a max nt opening :D some probaly woud try and penalise the h... out of you wich will score probaly even better.

 

 

Well, discoverd another advantage in online bridge against the real thing, screaming across the room will probaly only result in a unamused/pulling internetplug wife/husband(maybe thats why we see a disconnect once in a while, we shoud study it). But the rest of the online field isnt alerted of your "frequent"spycheness :)

 

Since your a belgian i allow 2 psyche in my tourneys(each) :D so i wont be responseble for you not lieying anymore during a tourney after your first psyche, you poor guy :(

Marc

[DrTodd13]

I join the chorus that this is not a pscyh. However, some players announce this 1NT bid as 15-18, and then strech with 13, and 14 often, with no alert of this agreement (in fact, they will say their agreement is 15-18). Anyone who makes this bid more than very occassionally light, should include that in an alert.

 

BTW, the opponents can have no complaint that you were light, after all, are they made they doubled you and you made when you WERE LIGHTER than you could have been? They wanted you to be stronger? So this would be a no harm, no foul ruling in all regards.

 

Ben

Hi Ben.

 

There is certainly some cutoff point where if the 1NT bidder has few enough points then your side will make 3N (or some other contract) your way while you may not be able to punish (1N)-X sufficiently to recoop your lost game bonus. So, I'm not sure that because the 1N bidder has less than promised that that can never be an issue that would require an adjustement.

 

Todd