Precision Support Asking BIds: Dead or Alive?

[Roger88]

I have been playing Precision with a regular partner for over six months using a version which includes the Support Asking Bids (SABs) as explained by Wei & company in the old precision books. My observations so far lead me to believe that using SABs is giving us far more bad results than good. The SAB response seems to me not to provide the most useful information.

A search of this forum using the search key of "support asking" only hit 4 posts and three of them are older. This leads me to believe that SABs are not widely used.

 

So my questions are:

 

Is SAB worth using and my partner and I just need more practice in order to use it correctly?

If your answer is yes, what particular version of SAB do you think is the best?

If your answer is no, what do you recommend instead: natural bidding or some other convention?

 

Thanks in advance to everyone who provides an informative response.

[straube]

I think Meckwell uses SAB so I'd think it have some merit. They tell you generally whether partner has a fit or not and whether he has extras or not and they're organized in such a way as to preserve space non-fitting/good and take up space fitting/bad. I'm less fond of the control asks that follow and I would rather play a relay system.

[dake50]

Heartily recommend TAB's - that's my main reason to dislike Key ask:

should already be known.

SAB's are confused by two messages: good controls/bad controls fit/non-fit.

Simplify them. Fit was asked, answer that.

Asker knows if Q-single is gold/dross, show it.

I actually like SAB as pure "what you got in this suit?"

A good answer may be critical to a 7-suiter for trumps slam.

[gurgistan]

I play TABS without any real regard to its efficacy because it makes precision what it is.

[PrecisionL]

We (Keylime & me) used to play Transfer Precision with the acceptance of the Transfer being a Beta Ask for Controls. We could ask about the trump suit after finding out if there were enough controls for slam (10+ controls without a void or singleton). Then, new suits after setting trumps would be the Precision CAB ask.

 

For the past 2 years we have been playing Transfer Precision with the cheapest bid by opener (after a positive response) being a relay for distribution. So we have now made distribution more important than Controls until enough information is discovered to try for slam with a Beta Ask. We also changed the responses to the Opener's new suit (by-passing the relay):

 

1st step 0-1 cards

2nd Step 2 cards exactly

3rd Step 3+ cards and 1-2 Controls (Beta Response)

4th Step 3+ cards and 3 Controls (Beta Response), etc.

 

After a 1st step or 2nd step, a repeat ask in the same suit sets trumps and is Beta.

 

We are very pleased with this design.

[mycroft]

Larry, I like that one. I may have to talk to my partner about it (my current problems with the responses is that the positive (Qxx+ or xxxx+) is so rare, and we kill our asks after a non-positive. Frequently xxx is good enough to go hunting, but we're limited in the tools to do it).

 

I still feel more comfortable with a Beta and controls continuation for the transfer completion though, because switching to distribution would take way too long to assimilate "what's good" - and if we did that, we might as well go all the way to Symmetric Relay/1C than have a half-and half.

[PrecisionL]

Larry, I like that one. I may have to talk to my partner about it (my current problems with the responses is that the positive (Qxx+ or xxxx+) is so rare, and we kill our asks after a non-positive. Frequently xxx is good enough to go hunting, but we're limited in the tools to do it).

 

I still feel more comfortable with a Beta and controls continuation for the transfer completion though, because switching to distribution would take way too long to assimilate "what's good" - and if we did that, we might as well go all the way to Symmetric Relay/1C than have a half-and half.

 

Oh no, do NOT go to symmetric. We have worked out a very neat scheme based on frequency and parallelism in several similar auctions including 1M - 2♣ = A & G.F.

 

e-mail me for more details. I'll have to clear it with my co-author, Keylime before responding. Our current version is not on-line, but the previous version URL is listed below as Ultra Club in my footnote to this post.

[mycroft]

Heh, do ask Keylime. Of course, tell him hello from me, too, and that we miss him in Penticton.

 

But I still think I'll stick to beta-and-delayed-TAB; but I might bring up the change to 1C-your suit; my suit, I like that. I assume that 3+ is further asks on, as is the rebid-trumpset, and that anything else is "drop to natural"?

[PrecisionL]

Heh, do ask Keylime. Of course, tell him hello from me, too, and that we miss him in Penticton.

 

But I still think I'll stick to beta-and-delayed-TAB; but I might bring up the change to 1C-your suit; my suit, I like that. I assume that 3+ is further asks on, as is the rebid-trump set, and that anything else is "drop to natural"?

 

Reask is Beta if 1st or 2nd response denied 3+ card support, otherwise it is a TAB for honors. We use none, Q / AK, K / AQ, A / KQ. This design is still in progress and testing.

 

A new suit is a SAB-4 if the previous SAB-3 response denied 3+ card support with similar responses. Most 2nd suits are 5-4 or 6-4 hands as 5-5 hands are so rare.

[helene_t]

We (Keylime & me) used to play Transfer Precision with the acceptance of the Transfer being a Beta Ask for Controls. We could ask about the trump suit after finding out if there were enough controls for slam (10+ controls without a void or singleton). Then, new suits after setting trumps would be the Precision CAB ask.

 

For the past 2 years we have been playing Transfer Precision with the cheapest bid by opener (after a positive response) being a relay for distribution. So we have now made distribution more important than Controls until enough information is discovered to try for slam with a Beta Ask.

Agusaris and I play the transfer accept as asking for controls but I think you are right in using the transfer accept to ask for distribution. You generally need more bidding space when you haven't found a fit yet than when you have.