1C-1S negative

[straube]

Our 1S response to our strong club shows 0-2 queen points (usually 0-4 hcps but not uncommon to have 5 or 6). Our continuations are...

 

1N-17-20

2C-almost GF

......2D-really bad

..........2M-nf

......other-GF various

2D-natural

2H-natural

2S-natural but stronger than passing 1S

2N-21-22

3m-to play

 

We have obvious problems with the 2-suiters. I'm thinking

 

2D-hearts

2H-spades

2S-clubs

.....2N-a little life

2N-21-22

3C-minors

3D-diamonds

 

Suggestions?

[straube]

Having a surprising amount of luck passing 1S with a balanced NT. Has anyone tried this? That leaves 1N available as an asking bid. That could leave 2C etc as natural nf or perhaps transfers, etc.

[straube]

deleted

 

1N as big is too rare a hand type. it needs to be nf

 

still looking for solutions

[straube]

1C-1S

 

1N-17-19

2C-20-22 balanced or 4441 or 5m431

.....P-5 clubs

.....2D-stayman

.....2H-to play

.....2S-to play

2D-hearts

2H-spades

2S-clubs

2N-23+ balanced or 5m431

3C-diamonds

other-4441s?

[Free]

I like the following structure after 1♣-1♠ double negative:

1NT = natural, up to 20HCP or so

2♣ = at least 5-4 Majors

...2♦ = no preference

...2M = signoff

...3M = INV

2♦ = 6+M / 4M 5+m

...2M = P/C

......(2♠ = 6+♠)

......2NT = 4♠ 5+m

.........3♣ = P/C

......3m = 4♥ 5+m

......(3♥ = 6+♥)

2M = 5M 4+m

2NT = 21-23HCP, balanced

3m = natural, NF

3M = natural, INV

 

It's not perfect for GF hands, but most of the time you can solve it by being creative (for example you can use 2♣ for something else, or you can jump after bidding 2♦ first). However you can get to decent part scores more often imo, which is much more common.

 

Another alternative I used to play was canapé transfers. You use 2♣ as a forcing call, and the rest is a transfer. You'll either signoff there, or bid a longer suit. For example, with 5♠-4♥ you can bid 1♣-1♠-2♦!-2♥!-2♠! (2♦ trf ♥ ; 2♠ shows longer ♠).

[dake50]

Immediate 1S as double negative: 'neg2' instead of

1C(F1) - 1D(neg1) - 1H(F1) - 1S(neg2)

seems to choose a bid for a rare 3% case that can be handled okay.

[hrothgar]

Immediate 1S as double negative: 'neg2' instead of

1C(F1) - 1D(neg1) - 1H(F1) - 1S(neg2)

seems to choose a bid for a rare 3% case that can be handled okay.

 

On the MOSCITO front, this design decision was motivated by:

 

1. MOSCITO uses a relatively weak strong club opening. As a result, the 1♦ response was severely overloaded

2. The auction 1♣ - (P) - 1♦ was very vulnerable to preemption

 

Showing shape immediately with semi-positive hands positioned us much better after a strong club opening.

Using 1♣ - (P) - 1♦ to show a game force establishes a forcing pass, making it much easier to handle preemption

 

Using 1♣- (P) - 1♠ as an immediate double negative was an outgrowth of other design decisions.

It wasn't necessarily a design goal in and of itself.

[straube]

I like the following structure after 1♣-1♠ double negative:

1NT = natural, up to 20HCP or so

2♣ = at least 5-4 Majors

...2♦ = no preference

...2M = signoff

...3M = INV

2♦ = 6+M / 4M 5+m

...2M = P/C

......(2♠ = 6+♠)

......2NT = 4♠ 5+m

.........3♣ = P/C

......3m = 4♥ 5+m

......(3♥ = 6+♥)

2M = 5M 4+m

2NT = 21-23HCP, balanced

3m = natural, NF

3M = natural, INV

 

It's not perfect for GF hands, but most of the time you can solve it by being creative (for example you can use 2♣ for something else, or you can jump after bidding 2♦ first). However you can get to decent part scores more often imo, which is much more common.

 

Another alternative I used to play was canapé transfers. You use 2♣ as a forcing call, and the rest is a transfer. You'll either signoff there, or bid a longer suit. For example, with 5♠-4♥ you can bid 1♣-1♠-2♦!-2♥!-2♠! (2♦ trf ♥ ; 2♠ shows longer ♠).

 

 

Along those lines, how about...

 

2C-has a major and another

.....2D-neither or both majors

..........2H-4/5

..........2S-5/4

..........2N-4H/5m

..........3C-4S/5C

..........3D-4S/5D

.....2H-has only hearts

.....2S-has only spades

2D-6c major or 22-23

.....2H-doesn't like hearts

.....2S-likes hearts, doesn't like spades

.....2N-likes hearts and spades, wouldn't raise NT

.....etc

2M-5M/4m

2N-20-21

3C-minors

3D-majors

3M-highly invitational

[straube]

Immediate 1S as double negative: 'neg2' instead of

1C(F1) - 1D(neg1) - 1H(F1) - 1S(neg2)

seems to choose a bid for a rare 3% case that can be handled okay.

 

Depending on what exactly 1C and 1S show (in terms of strength) the 1S double negative response is more like 20% of responses. The fact that one hand has 16+ or so means that the likelihood of responder's hand being very weak is a lot higher than average. It's an important sequence.

[straube]

I'm still wondering (on average) what our spade expectancy is after 1C P 1S P. One spade is an attractive overcall to make after a strong club by LHO and I've seen people do that with 4 and even 3 spades. The 1S response does shut out RHO's spade overcall, though rarely they will double to show spades.

 

I dislike that 1C-1S, 1N shows 16-20. We almost never get a 2C (stayman) continuation (though we get a lot of transfers).

 

What would happen if we passed 1S on the balanced 16-18 pt hands? Rebid 1N with something like 19-21?

[straube]

Paul Marston is doing something similar to Free

 

1C: 1S.

. 1N = 15-20. Then 2C= Stay. 2D/H = TFRs, 2S = 5-4 minors(2N asks)

2N=55 ms, 3C/D TP

. 2C=stayman. Then 3 any is GF.

. 2D= one major

. 2H/S = 4(5)M + 5+m

. 2N = 21-23 - then puppet & tfr. 3S = minors.

. 3C/D = to play

. 3H/S = invite. (2C then 3M to force.)

[straube]

2C then 2 any would show a 4cm. So your auction would be 21-23 with 4M.

I see no need to show my 23+, knowing there is 0-4 opposite. I bid 2C then 3

something if I want to hear more.

1C:1S, 2D:2H, 2N... don't know.

 

-----Original Message-----

From: dastraube@aol.com [mailto:dastraube@aol.com]

Sent: Tuesday, 12 April 2011 4:29 PM

Subject: RE: 1C-1S

 

Thanks a lot. Does your 2C (by opener) promise a 4-cd major? What would

1C-1S, 2C-2L, 2N show?

 

I was thinking of using 2D similarly, but also with a strong NT meaning.

 

1C-1S, 2D-2H, 2N as 23+ or so

 

Have you used it like that and what would your 1C-1S, 2D-2H, 3m show?

[Free]

please mask the email addresses, I don't think Paul likes to be spammed... ;)

[straube]

please mask the email addresses, I don't think Paul likes to be spammed... ;)

 

Thanks. His email is pretty available, but I deleted it here.

[straube]

1C-1S

 

1N-16-20

2C-stayman (21-22 bal OR 5/4 majors OR GF hand)

.....2D-weak, no major

..........2H-4S/5H

..........2S-5S/4H

..........2N-21-22

..........3L-natural gf

.....2H-weak, 4+ hearts

..........2S-4 spades, 21-22

..........2N-21-22 balanced

.....2S-weak, 4+ spades

.....3C-4+ stayman

.....3D-inv hearts

.....3H-inv spades

2D-6M or 5M/4m or or 23 bal or 6m

.....2H-wouldn't raise hearts

..........2S-spades

..........2N-23 bal

..........3m-minor

.....2S-would raise hearts, promises 4+

.....2N-would raise hearts or spades, promises 4+ of each

2H-4-5 hearts and 5m

2S-4-5 spades and 5m

2N-minors

3L-invitational

 

Some things I like about this...starting at 2C with a 21-22 balanced means that we can occasionally stop at 2M in a 4-4 fit. We can also get out in 3m which would be impossible after opening 2N. For instance, 1C-1S, 2C-2H, 2N-3C would show 4H and 5C

 

The thing I don't like about this is that occasionally opener will have a monster hand (which starts with 2C usually) and responder can get in his way at the 3-level. If opener starts at 2C, his subsequent bids at the 3-level would ordinarily be natural and game forcing.

[Free]

1C-1S

 

1N-16-20

2C-stayman (21-22 bal OR 5/4 majors OR GF hand)

.....2D-weak, no major

..........2H-4S/5H

..........2S-5S/4H

..........2N-21-22

..........3L-natural gf

.....2H-weak, 4+ hearts

..........2S-4 spades, 21-22

..........2N-21-22 balanced

.....2S-weak, 4+ spades

.....3C-4+ stayman

.....3D-inv hearts

.....3H-inv spades

2D-6M or 5M/4m or or 23 bal or 6m

.....2H-wouldn't raise hearts

..........2S-spades

..........2N-23 bal

..........3m-minor

.....2S-would raise hearts, promises 4+

.....2N-would raise hearts or spades, promises 4+ of each

2H-4-5 hearts and 5m

2S-4-5 spades and 5m

2N-minors

3L-invitational

 

Some things I like about this...starting at 2C with a 21-22 balanced means that we can occasionally stop at 2M in a 4-4 fit. We can also get out in 3m which would be impossible after opening 2N. For instance, 1C-1S, 2C-2H, 2N-3C would show 4H and 5C

 

The thing I don't like about this is that occasionally opener will have a monster hand (which starts with 2C usually) and responder can get in his way at the 3-level. If opener starts at 2C, his subsequent bids at the 3-level would ordinarily be natural and game forcing.

3 remarks:

 

1. I don't think you'll ever stop in 2M. Responder can still have 4HCP and you'll miss an easy game. As a matter of fact, I don't like the responses you use after 2♣ (see below).

 

2. I don't like the 2M calls: if you show 4-5M, then responder can't pass a doubleton. That's why in my structure I use it as exactly 5M (with 4+m), and put the 4M5m hands in 2♦. I guess he only bids 2M with 5 if it's a very poor suit, this may be acceptable.

 

3. I wouldn't worry too much about responder getting in the way. He must have a maximum double negative (sounds funny) with lots of distribution. But you can also solve this issue by changing your continuations (responder bids like opener has 5-4M):

2♦ = no preference (waiting) or INV

...2♥ = 5♥, 4+♠

......2♠/3♥ = INV

...2♠ = 5♠, 4♥

......3♥/♠ = INV

...2NT = 21-22 bal

...3m = GF m

2M = preference (2 card discrepancy if you prefer 5-2 fits over 4-3)

...2NT = 21-22

...3m = GF m

[Zelandakh]

I have had a think about this. I think by reversing your structure we can have our cake...

 

1C - 1S

=======

P = weak with some spades

1N = 16-20 (semi-) bal

2C = less than GF (if bal then 21-22), may be passed by Responder with long clubs

...2D = waiting, NF

...others = own suit

2D = choose one from "majors or minors" or "majors or constructive minor"

2M = strong 2, GF except 2M - 2S/2N - 3M

2N = 23-24 (semi-) bal

3m = nat GF

3M = 4M and longer diamonds, GF

3N = 25+ (semi-) bal

 

The 2D call is kind of just there to fill a niche of whatever hands are the most awkward. Possibly you could get all 3 of these hand types into it but I do not have time to work it out. Equally, more could probably be done with the spade suit since weaker hands can pass, albeit at a cost of memory load if 2H and 2S are different. By reversing 2C and the higher calls you make it possible to stop more often at the 2 level when it is right while allowing the important GF hand type to show itself immediately.

[straube]

I'm basically giving up on trying to establish a GF at a low level. I'm trying to describe opener's 2-suited hands and clarify whether he is minimum or inviting game. To GF, opener will usually be bidding his 2nd suit at the 4-level or his major at the 4-level. I think it's important that 2C promise a major so that subsequent bidding won't be cross-purposed. btw, usually 4M/5m is 4M/6m

 

2C-has a 4-cd major

…..2D-4H, could have 4S

……….2H-fit

……….2S-4S/5m, minimum

……….2N-21-22 bal with four spades

..........3m-4S/5m invite

…..2H-no major

……….P-4S/5H

……….2S-5S/4H

……….2N-21-22 bal

……….3m-4M/5m

……….3M-6M/4OM, invite

..........4m-4M/5m invite

…..2S-4S, no H, weak

……….P-fit

……….2N-21-22 bal

…..2N-4S, no H, strong

 

2D-hearts or 21-22 bal no major

…..2H-

……….2S-some 5332 or 54m22 or 54m31, invite

……….2N-21-22 bal no major

……….3m-5/5 invite

……….3H-invite

…..2S-heart raise

2H-spades

…..2S

……….2N-some 5332 or 54m22 or 54m31 invite

……….3m-5/5 invite

……….3H-5H invite

………..3S-invite

2S-minors or just diamonds

…..2N-asks

……….3C-better clubs

……….3D-better diamonds

……….3H-1-3-(54)

……….3S-3-1-(54)

2N-23+ bal or semibalanced, GF

3C-clubs

3D-5-cd stayman with a self-sufficient minor

3M-shortness with a self-sufficient minor

[straube]

Catering to 5H/4S minimum hands really complicates things. Trying to get rid of that...

 

2C-stayman

…..2D-4+H, could have 4S

……….2H-fit

……….2S-4S, 21-22 bal

……….2N-20-21 no major

..........3m-4S/5m

..........3H-invite

..........3N-4S

…..2H-4+S, could have 4H if longer spades

……….2S-fit

……….2N-21-22 bal

……….3m-4H/5m

..........3S-invite

..........3N-4H

..........4m-4M/5m invite

…..2S-no major

……….P-5S/4H

……….2N-21-22 bal

..........3m-4M/5m

..........3M-6M/4OM, invite

 

 

2D-hearts

…..2H-

..........P-could have 4S minimum

……….2S-4S, invite

……….2N-bal or semibal, 21-22 or so

……….3m-5/5 invite

……….3H-invite

…..2S-natural

 

2H-spades

…..2S

……….2N-bal or semibal, 21-22 or so

……….3m-5/5 invite

……….3H-5H invite

………..3S-invite

2S-minors or just diamonds

…..2N-asks

……….3C-better clubs

……….3D-better diamonds

……….3H-1-3-(54)

……….3S-3-1-(54)

2N-23-24 bal or semibalanced

3C-clubs

3D-5-cd stayman with a self-sufficient minor

.....3M-6M or 5M with some intermediates capable of drawing trump

3M-shortness with a self-sufficient minor

3N-tricks

[Zelandakh]

I really dislike simple transfers from the strong hand here. If going down the transfer route I would much prefer 2-under transfers. Example...

 

1C - 1S

=======

1N = 16-20 bal

2C = hearts

...2D = waiting

...2H = discouraging for hearts

...2S = own suit

...2N/3C = transfer into own suit

...3D = heart raise

2D = spades

...2H = waiting

...2S = discouraging for spades

...2N/3C/3D = transfer into own suit

...3H = spade raise

2H = clubs or 23+ bal

...2S = waiting

...2N/3C/3D/3H = transfer into own suit

2S = diamonds

2N = 21-22 bal

3any = bundle some awkward hands here

[straube]

You dislike them because hearts get wrong-sided? If so, I think that's unfortunate, too. But spades are already wrong-sided.

 

I think stayman is right because it finds so many 4-4 fits that would otherwise go undetected. 1C-1S, 2N at 20-21 would be so often passed and I think 4-4 major contracts would be very preferable opposite such a weak hand. 20-21 bal is very common.

 

1C-1S, 2C-2S (no major), 2N-3m to play

 

1C-1S, 2D-2S (4 spades 21-22), 3C-transfers-3D (accepts), 3H GI hearts

 

1C-1S, 2D-2N (21-22 no major), 3D-GF checkback (transfers could also work)

 

Plus the 4M-6m can investigate a major suit fit before retiring in 3m. I think dbl under transfers could potentially miss a 9-cd major fit here.

 

I like that the 2-under transfers handle 6m/5M whereas I have to present as a 5/5 but I'm not very worried about the difference. I also like the idea that the waiting bid promises something before opener has to commit to taking past 2M.

 

I'm kind of thinking that 1C-1S, 3H ought to be invitational hearts to avoid the wrong-siding.

[straube]

We tested this and it worked pretty well. The 3D, 3H, and 3S bids never came up. I think 1C-1S, 3H should be a GI hearts but then not sure what 1C-1S, 2D-2H, 3H should be.

 

We also have a bit of ambiguity after 1C-1S, 2S showing diamonds or just diamonds. Should responder preference clubs with 4-5-1-3 for example?

 

I'm thinking...

 

1C-1S,

 

2S-minors or weak diamonds

.....2N-no preference

.........3C-5/5 or longer clubs

.........3D-weak diamonds or longer diamonds

.........3H-1-3-(54)

.........3S-3-1-(54)

 

3C-clubs

.....3D-stayman for 3-cd major, implies fit

.....3H-6H, nf

.....3S-6S, nf

3D-stronger, diamonds

.....3M-5M, forcing

3H-invitational, wants xx support (so transfer and rebid shows stronger suit)

3S-invitational, wants xx support (so transfer and rebid shows stronger suit)

[PrecisionL]

Depending on what exactly 1C and 1S show (in terms of strength) the 1S double negative response is more like 20% of responses. The fact that one hand has 16+ or so means that the likelihood of responder's hand being very weak is a lot higher than average. It's an important sequence.

 

Yes, my spread sheet has 0-4 hcp by responder is 20.5 % of ALL hands when partner opens a 15 hcp or higher 1♣.

 

Swedish Precision uses the 1NT rebid by the 1♣ opener as any single suited hand. In our 1M - 2♣ Artificial and Game Forcing DESIGN, we put almost all single suited hands, balanced and 3-suiters into ONE BID and then all other rebids are 2-suited. Maybe that concept could work for you?

[straube]

Yes, my spread sheet has 0-4 hcp by responder is 20.5 % of ALL hands when partner opens a 15 hcp or higher 1♣.

 

Swedish Precision uses the 1NT rebid by the 1♣ opener as any single suited hand. In our 1M - 2♣ Artificial and Game Forcing DESIGN, we put almost all single suited hands, balanced and 3-suiters into ONE BID and then all other rebids are 2-suited. Maybe that concept could work for you?

 

How does Swedish Precision handle opener's balanced hands? I think a 1N rebid has to be balanced or semi-balanced. What's their whole scheme?

 

We use 1M-2C as a GF relay and we do put most of our balanced hands into a 2D rebid. Ours turns into standard symmetric +1 and the only patterns that don't have a home are the 5440s which have to pretend to be 5431s.

[PrecisionL]

How does Swedish Precision handle opener's balanced hands? I think a 1N rebid has to be balanced or semi-balanced. What's their whole scheme?

 

The Strong Club - the Scanian Way by Mats Nilsland (1995) uses the 1♦ response as negative (you might not like that) and a 1♥ rebid:

 

(a) 17-13 bal (maybe semi-balanced, or

(b) 17+ with 5+ ♥s, not 1-suited, denies 4+♠, or

© 20+ with 4♥ and a longer minor, or

(d) 17+ both minors, or

(e) 20-23 with 1=4=4=4 or GF with any 4♥441, or

(f) GF 5440 with non-touching 4-cd suits.

 

What a mouth full :<)).