SAYC--Better MINOR

[pirate22]

I am not knocking SAYC,but what does better minor mean/not mean.

EXAMPLES.

A... 4/4/AK/765

B... 4/4.109/J107

C... 4/4/A/9873

D... 3/3/AKJ/10873

E... SEE BELOW

with the above values shown in the minor's

plus values in majors.to make up an opening bid.12-14 points.

Hand E 4/5/4/VOID---- A962-98752 AKJ10-void,does one blindly

open 1 ht-if not... and opens 1d pard bids 2cl???

once this debate gets going,and a few answers,

the next topic associated to this,with better minor,

Responder has 5 card minor and a 4 card major.

with examples to be shewn

[awm]

"Better minor" is just a way of selecting which minor suit to open when you have equal length. It doesn't suggest that you would open a strong shorter minor in preference to a weaker longer minor. On all your example hands (with unequal length) it would be normal to open the longer minor. The examples that matter are more like:

 

♠Qxxx ♥KJx ♦AKx ♣xxx

 

♠AQx ♥Ax ♦xxxx ♣KJxx

 

Playing better minor, we would open 1♦ on the first hand and 1♣ on the second. The more popular style in the US is to open 1♣ on the first (always clubs when 3-3) and 1♦ on the second (always diamonds when 4-4). A lot of Europeans would open 1♣ on both hands (always 1♣ with 3-3 or 4-4 on a balanced hand); in fact some have moved all the way to "always 1♣ on a balanced hand" even with unequal length in the minors.

[pirate22]

agree with hands you have shewn-let me have answers to my hands shewn

[BillHiggin]

agree with hands you have shewn-let me have answers to my hands shewn

 

He did - open the longer minor when they are unequal.

A: 1C - 3 clubs is longer than 2 diamonds

B: 1C - same

C: 1C - 4 is more than 1

D: 1C - 4 is more than 3

E: 1H - 5 is 5 (I would not criticize someone that decided to treat the heart suit as a 4 card suit - as long as they stick to that through the auction).

[pooltuna]

A. 1♣

B. 1♣

C. 1♣

D. 1♦

[peachy]

SAYC does not use 'better minor'.

Here is what SAYC prescribes (if you want to know what SAYC actually is):

 

Normally open five-card majors in all seats.

Open the higher of long suits of equal length: 5–5 or 6–6.

Normally open 1D with 4–4 in the minors.

Normally open 1C with 3–3 in the minors.

Notrump openings show a balanced hand and may be made with a five-card major suit or a five-card minor suit.

 

Thus, all your examples open 1C in SAYC. Should you use judgment to open 1D with AKQ-xxx, is up to you and for example in third seat even those who are true to shape and system, might open it 1D.

[Zelandakh]

Better minor means that if you open a minor auit at the 1 level, you open the longer suit and that if both are of equal length you open the stronger. As peachy points out, better minor is not a part of SAYC despite the fact that most would use the term. More accurate is convenient minor, meaning that you open the most convenient minor suit when considering how the auction might continue. More accurate still is to give peachy's response. There are alternative styles to both of these such as short club, prepared club, etc - there is at least one recent thread which dealt with the majority of the possibilities that you might find it helpful to search for. Opening the weaker minor can be quite helpful sometimes when it comes to the opening lead...

[gordontd]

Opening the weaker minor can be quite helpful sometimes when it comes to the opening lead...

It tends to be less helpful when it has been properly disclosed.

[Zelandakh]

It tends to be less helpful when it has been properly disclosed.

Quite agreed :). Nonetheless I think it is a style that can be awkward as it is not always easy to ascertain Opener's real length - the same can apply to a short club opening.

[pirate22]

Very helpfull explanations,especially my mis-terminology

better Minor as opposed to Convienient minor.I have seen both

definitions used by opps profile.

Now to prolong the Debate,futher my next question is

responses Opp 1cl...............

1d................ you have a 4 card major

and a 5 card minor,and min values-med values-strong values,not

using WJS if part opens 1cl-and one bids 1d {be it a 4/5 cad suit,

most players assume you have no 4 card major(((((((((((

missing perhaps a 4/4/fit.

the other chestnut pard opens 1d-again a 4 card major and a 5 card minor.

Difficult decisions when one is min and medium.

also if strong and either the major{4 card}is bid and

subsequent rebid of the minor-alot of partners assume u have 5 card major.

To obviate this/these problems-I play 1d=min 4 cards-and 1cl=can be 2

cards but not forcing............

It also now raises the Question if i am defending either a 1c/1d opening,

opps using Better minor/convienient minor.when can one click the bid,and get a satisfactory answer?

 

Regards

[Quantumcat]

I have trouble understanding your post but I think this is an answer to your questions:

 

Holding a four-card major and a five-card minor, you have to decide whether you are worth two bids or not. This means whether you are worth an invitation or not.

 

If you are weak, you would normally bid your four card major and never show your minor.

If you are invitational or better, you might show both.

 

Also as opener, if you have a balanced hand, you should rebid 1NT rather than rebid a major. Bidding two suits should show two suits. Partner may want to put you back to your first suit, so you should make sure you actually have your first suit. Also, since responder will only skip a four card major if he is planning to continue after your rebid, you don't need to worry about missing a 4-4 major fit - either responder hasn't got 4 cards or he is planning to show them on his second bid.

 

e.g. if you have 5 diamonds, 4 hearts and 7 HCP

1♣-1♦

1NT

Now you have to pass - bidding on shows at least invitational values. You may miss a 4-4 heart fit. You should have bid 1♥ to start with.

 

BUT if you have 5 diamonds, 4 hearts and 11 HCP

1♣-1♦

1NT-2♥

4♥

Now you can show them.

 

Also no matter whether the opponents are playing better minor or short club, treat it as a real suit, because that's what it will be most of the time. That means that doubles are takeout doubles of that suit.