The Path Less Traveled

[Phil]

I suspect that partner with three hearts will not wish to pitch a heart under any circumstances.

 

I'm not sure why you think that. We are looking at AK9642 of hearts and dummy has T75. Partner could send a very clear signal QJ8 / QJ3 by pitching the Q. With J83, he would have an easy J or 8.

 

From four hearts he might pitch a heart.

 

I think he would always probably pitch the ♥Q looking at QJ83, but our chances of beating this are diminished in that case, and our defense probably doesn't matter anyway.

 

A club pitch tells us he is long in clubs. Long enough that a pitch can never cost so he will cater to us having a singleton. Thus he must have at least 5 clubs.

 

Agree, and his 2 should be present count, although I don't know if Adam plays UDPC or standard. For me, the club 2 would show 6 (or less likely, 4), which would put declarer on a likely 6=1=3=3. As Ulven said, the club card should not only be count, but also send an indirect message about the ♥Q.

 

So perhaps the real question is why does RHO, with two aces and a card in our suit, feel that it is not right to defend 4H opposite a 3S bid that could be almost anything.

 

I don't see how you can arrive at this conclusion RHO has a 'card in our suit'.

 

I think that its impossibly inconsistent for declarer to have stiff Q of hearts. It just cannot be true on this bidding.

 

You just contradicted yourself.

 

Would he really bid 4S here when he is beating 4H opposite Kxx spade and Jxx hearts 40% of the time? (i.e. spades 2-2). That way lies madness.

 

And have gone back to saying he has the ♥Q stiff. I feel as though I am watching a ping-pong match in your brain.

 

The only question then, is whether declarer will generally need his club ruff for ten tricks.

 

Our club ruff will be our 4th trick along with a club, spade and a heart. He can have his club ruff.

 

If declarer were 6-2-0-5 and partner had KJ32 clubs or similar, then he might find a club pitch.

 

So partner raised to 4♥ on x - Qx - 9xxxxx - KJxx? As you say, why would partner ever pitch a club from this layout? He has a normal diamond pitch. Plus, this looks like a responsive double to me.

 

However now partner is smoking something special

.

 

He needs this to play with you apparently. :P

 

If declarer is 6-1-2-4 might he squeeze partner or me?

 

With A86x, he has a finesse. With A87x, he doesn't need either. With A7xx, there's only 9 tricks. With A643, he needs the squeeze for 9. Again, some of this only matters if declarer has the ♥Q stiff. If partner discarded a discouraging heart, we need to attack dummy's entries now in case declarer has AJTxxx Q Jx A6xx (funny weak 2 though)

[han]

Battle of the phils.

[MrAce]

Phil (clayton) , i am nowhere close to be as good as u in english, but i think all his comments were trying to tell why declarer is unlikely to hold the stiff ♥Q, rather than contradicting himself.

 

Again, some of this only matters if declarer has the ♥Q stiff. If partner discarded a discouraging heart, we need to attack dummy's entries now in case declarer has AJTxxx Q Jx A6xx (funny weak 2 though)

 

Attacking dummy's entries i assume u mean ♦K ? That will not help defense. He takes Ace, cashes all ♠ and asks ur pd to hold 4 cards. Pd has to hold 3 ♦+1♣ in that case he cashes ♦ J and endplays pd with ♣

[kenrexford]

As a general rule, I find one principle to be a good one to live by. Consider two options:

 

1. Partners carding tells me that he does not have the heart Queen.

2. Declarer, a person I did not select as my partner for the event, made a call of which I would not approve if he has the heart Queen.

 

I find that going with option #1 usually works best in the long run.

[MrAce]

As a general rule, I find one principle to be a good one to live by. Consider two options:

 

1. Partners carding tells me that he does not have the heart Queen.

2. Declarer, a person I did not select as my partner for the event, made a call of which I would not approve if he has the heart Queen.

 

I find that going with option #1 usually works best in the long run.

 

No doubt on that, IF the interpretation of ♣2 was clear and obvious for everyone. As far as the replies goes, i don't think people are in same page even on the opening lead being obvious stiff or not, which directly affects the meaning of pd's signal.

 

I personally prefere to go with odds Q being in pd's hand vs interpretations of all that carding styles. I have the opposite experience that u have, it worked better for me to go with odds as oppose to partner's being able to read everything correct and signal correctly and be in same page with me, especially when the odds suggests strongly otherwise.

 

But i definetely understand your view and u have valid points.

[mtvesuvius]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk62hak9642dk83c9&w=sq94ht75daqt5cqt3&n=s7hj83dj62ckj8752&e=sajt853hqd974ca64&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=2s3h3s4h4sdppp&p=c9ctcjcasas2s4s7sjsksqc2h2h5hjhqsts6s9c5d9dkdad2h7h3s3h4d7d8dtdjh8s5h6htd4d3dqd6d5c7c6h9c3c8c4hkcks8ha]399|300[/hv]

 

Unfortunately declarer did have the stiff queen, and despite me giving him a diamond guess later, he made 4♠.

[gnasher]

despite me giving him a diamond guess later

It wasn't really a guess: you wouldn't have played ♦8 from a remaining 863.

[kenrexford]

Trusting partner works. Weird.

[Phil]

Trusting partner works. Weird.

 

Get better partners. Mine would have dumped the ♥8 / J in a nanosecond.

[MrAce]

Get better partners. Mine would have dumped the ♥8 / J in a nanosecond.

 

Agree...And u dont even need a good pd to dump them...even i would have dumped them :D

[mtvesuvius]

♥J can easily be wrong, the ♥8 is helpful though.

 

When partner has AKQxxx♥, then pitching the ♥J will give up the hand.

[Phil]

♥J can easily be wrong, the ♥8 is helpful though.

 

When partner has AKQxxx♥, then pitching the ♥J will give up the hand.

Might give up the hand. Declarer gets one of our heart spots. If it is the 6, 4 or 2, partner will card the same with J83 as 863, 843 and 832. And if partner has the ♦J, we won't need anything fancy.

[gnasher]

Suppose that partner did throw a discouraging heart. What would you play next?

[gnasher]

Suppose that partner did throw a discouraging heart. What would you play next?

 

I'm glad to see that you're all taking more than a nanosecond over this. It's a good idea for at least one member of the partnership to think about the defence.

[blackshoe]

Overheard at a local club, after the session: "I didn't come here to think, I came here to play bridge!" :lol:

[MrAce]

I'm glad to see that you're all taking more than a nanosecond over this. It's a good idea for at least one member of the partnership to think about the defence.

 

Since you insisted, Andy, i think you deserve an answer. I was not gonna answer this because i didn't wanna be mean.

 

Before u get my answer, note that your suggestion in this topic was to cash ♥A and then exit with ♠ (correct me if i am wrong) Which was totally inconsistent with your analysis that pd DOES NOT HAVE ♥Q :)

 

.......................

I don't see what ♦K switch is supposed to achieve, and it risks that declarer does something inspired with AJ10xxx Q xxxx Ax.

 

I would just cash a top heart and then exit with a trump. If declarer knocks out partner's club and then runs trumps, partner keeps the same number of hearts as dummy, and I keep all my diamonds.

 

The hand I've given declarer looks like a one-level opening to me, but I'd believe my partner's carding.

 

 

Answer : Once pd discourages the ♥, i think you don't mind if we cash the ♥A just like you did. And after that it is easy to play small♦ imo.

 

-If declarer has Jxx ♦ he always makes

-If he has xxx or xxxx ♦ he always goes down regardless of who has the ♣8 and regardless of what u play (please just dont drop your pd's ♥J with K though :P )

-If declarer has Jx ♦, he was cold by simple ♦ finesse discarding his ♥ loser, so lets take that one out.

-If declarer has 4♣ without 8 and xx ♦, it still doesnt matter what u play.

-If declarer has 4♣ A8xx and xx ♦, he makes unless you play ♦ after ♥A

 

The point is you need your pd to have the ♦J in order to defeat this contract once you decide he doesn't have the ♥Q. Can u see how u went wrong even after you figured that pd did not have ♥Q ? You get your pd squeezed big time m8 ;)

 

Anyway, if pd discouraged ♥, Phil and i would defeat this in "NANO" second even if declarer had AJTxxx Q xx A8xx while u give it to them in a golden plate.

 

It is good at least one pd in the pdship figured that pd doesn't have the ♥Q even with the lack of ♥8 discard and forum style signalling and all that fancy stuff, but it is sad that he still did not find the correct defense.

[gnasher]

Before u get my answer, note that your suggestion in this topic was to cash ♥A and then exit with ♠ (correct me if i am wrong) Which was totally inconsistent with your analysis that pd DOES NOT HAVE ♥Q :)

 

I've looked carefully through my earlier posts, and I can't find anything to suggest that I would defend like that if my partner threw a heart. That is how I was going to defend if my partner threw a club.

 

After a club discard, it's perfectly safe to defend as I suggested, because, as I said in my very first post, "If declarer knocks out partner's club and then runs trumps, partner keeps the same number of hearts as dummy, and I keep all my diamonds."

 

Once partner throws a heart, that doesn't work, as you have now spotted. There are two risks, both relevant only if declarer has AJ10xxx Q xx Q8xx:

- A double squeeze, if declarer can arrange to lead a club to his 8 knock out ♣K (after drawing my trump) and isolate the heart menace, whilst retaining a diamond entry to dummy.

- Being endplayed to give dummy a trick with ♥10.

 

If partner threw ♥8, I would, after thinking about the rest of the play, play a diamond. Then when I got in with the next heart I would play another diamond. This ensures that the contract goes down even if partner hasn't spotted the risk of a double squeeze. From what I've seen of partner's defence so far, it's best not to leave him with any decisions to make.

 

If my partner threw ♥J, I would cash ♥K before playing a diamond. If I didn't cash the heart, declarer could win, draw the trump, lead a club to the 8, play three rounds of diamonds, ruffing in hand, and play ♥Q.

 

Can u see how u went wrong even after you figured that pd did not have ♥Q ? You get your pd squeezed big time m8 http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

 

I think that when you tell somebody they are wrong, you should make sure that you've understood what they said.

 

And yes, remarkably enough I had spotted the risk of a squeeze after a heart discard. What on earth do you think was the point of my two previous posts?

Edited April 10, 2011 by gnasher

[MrAce]

 

Once partner throws a heart, that doesn't work, as you have now spotted. There are two risks, both relevant only if declarer has AJ10xxx Q xx Q8xx:

- A double squeeze, if declarer can arrange to lead a club to his 8 (after drawing my trump) and isolate the heart menace, whilst retaining a diamond entry to dummy.

- Being endplayed to give dummy a trick with ♥10.

 

 

Andy was this a typo ?

 

Anyway he doesn't need to play a ♣ to his 8, he can simply play a ♣ from hand to to dummy's Q if he has 8. If u say you would not play ♠ but a ♦ if pd discards a ♥, i will take your word on this and disregard what i wrote then. Sorry m8.

[gnasher]

Andy was this a typo ?

 

Anyway he doesn't need to play a ♣ to his 8, he can simply play a ♣ from hand to to dummy's Q if he has 8.

 

Yes, sorry, I meant that he should knock out ♣K - I'd only just got up when I wrote that :)

 

In the double squeeze line he has to play ♣Q, to force partner to win it. If the endplay line (after partner throws ♥J), he has to play a club to the 8, to score a trick without partner winning it.

 

I've edited the original post, for the sake of anyone who tries to make sense of it later.

[MrAce]

Yes, sorry, I meant that he should knock out ♣K - I'd only just got up when I wrote that :)

 

In the double squeeze line he has to play ♣Q, to force partner to win it. If the endplay line (after partner throws ♥J), he has to play a club to the 8, to score a trick without partner winning it.

 

You mean if we don't play ♦ after ♥A (assume pd discarded ♥8)

[gnasher]

You mean if we don't play ♦ after ♥A (assume pd discarded ♥8)

 

Yes.

[MrAce]

I may be missing something, what endplay ? Show me pls after we cashed ♥A and lets say we played a ♠

 

[hv=pc=n&s=shk9642dk83c&w=sht7daqt5cq3&n=shjdj962ck76&e=st85hd74c854]399|300[/hv]

 

How does end play work here ?

[gnasher]

Anyway, the point I was eventually getting to was this. If we compare the two possible signalling strategies:

 

(1) The only way to deny ♥Q is to throw a high heart. All other discards show ♥Q.

(2) To deny ♥Q, partner can throw a high heart or a small club. To show ♥Q, partner can throw a small heart or a high club.

 

(1) means that partner has to signal with a potential trick. Once partner discourages hearts, we have to defend quite carefully to avoid turning it into an actual trick. (2) means that we can defend on autopilot. Isn't it obviously better to be playing (2)?

[gnasher]

I may be missing something, what endplay ? Show me pls after we cashed ♥A and lets say we played a ♠

 

How does end play work here ?

 

It doesn't. The endplay occurs if (a) partner throws ♥J, and (b) we don't cash ♥A.

[MrAce]

Anyway, the point I was eventually getting to was this. If we compare the two possible signalling strategies:

 

(1) The only way to deny ♥Q is to throw a high heart. All other discards show ♥Q.

(2) To deny ♥Q, partner can throw a high heart or a small club. To show ♥Q, partner can throw a small heart or a high club.

 

(1) means that partner has to signal with a potential trick. Once partner discourages hearts, we have to defend quite carefully to avoid turning it into an actual trick. (2) means that we can defend on autopilot. Isn't it obviously better to be playing (2)?

 

Actually, if declarer has the ♣ 8, pd may not afford to discard a higher ♣. And i think it's priority is higher than the ♥ since we also have ♥ guards but only pd is in charge of ♣s

 

EDIT: And my point was; you and i and other posters look at this hand on the forum page, think about all the possible shapes and try to figure which signal worls best for us, and then we expect pd to do the same and as a result we expect him to think exactly as we do. No doubt thats ideal. But you know very well as i do, we rarely have this luxury and the time at the table. Pd played ♣2, as u said thi can mean he doesnt have ♥Q, he may just want ♣, he may have not afforrd to play higher ♣. By the way, if he knew our ♣ lead was stiff, why didn't he discard a small ♦ ? After all he saw declarer with 2 black aces, declarer cant have ♦K too, and if he has what he discards wouldn't matter...Can declarer have a stiff K ? Who knows...I have seen much more in a preempt in JEC matches.