1C (1S)

[straube]

For strong club, what's the best way to cope with 1S interference? I think pretty common is...

 

P-0-4 or trapping

dbl-5-7

1N-5-7, stopper

other-GF

 

We've been playing

 

P-GF with 2+ spades (we can relay after this)

dbl-0-4 or 5-7 balanced

1N-5-7, hearts

2C-5-7, takeout of spades

2D-5-7, diamonds

2H-GF, 5 hearts

2S-5-7, 6 clubs

2N etc. GF transfers

 

I think our dbl is very overloaded. I'm also not sure that I like 1N as natural 5-7 but maybe that's best.

[straube]

Here's what a local expert pair does...

 

P-0-7 or trapping

dbl-8+ with 5+ hearts

1N-8-12 balanced with a stopper

2m-8+ natural

2H-8+, 3-suited with short major, relays follow

2S-8+ balanced with usually no spade stopper

higher? Rubensohl?

[akhare]

Seems like one easy improvement is the following:

 

P GF with 2+ spades

dbl Junk hand

1N NF, Bal, may not have a stopper

2C Limited takeout of ♠

2D ♦s, NF

2H ♥, NF

2S ♣

2N+ GF transfer

 

Since 2♠ is forcing through at least 2N, it seems possible to put some GF hands with ♣s in it as well and assign some other meaning to a direct 2N...

[lowerline]

This it what Roy Hughes recommends:

 

pass = weak or lenght in spades

dbl = balanced with or without stopper

1nt = clubs

2♣ = diamonds

2♦ = hearts

2♥ = 3-suited, short in spades

2♠ = minors

2nt = clubs and hearts

3♣ = diamonds and hearts

3♦ = clubs with no spade shortness or stopper

3♥ = clubs with spade shortness

3♠ = AKQxxx or longer in some suit

3nt = all strength in spades

 

 

dbl, 1nt, 2♣, 2♦ all show a semi-positive or better

 

Steven

[Free]

I've always liked Dbl as double negative after any 1-level interference (except 1NT). After 1♠, Dbl shows trash or some GF which are unbiddable, while pass shows a semipositive hand (or trap, but many play 1♠ artificial in which case this is quite useless), all others are GF, jumps are INV.

 

Pass = around 5-7 / trap

Dbl = around 0-4 / GF 4441♠ / GF no stopper

1NT = GF bal (may be 4441 with stopper)

2X = GF, 5+X (also the 2♠ cuebid)

2NT = unused

3X = INV, good 6+X

 

Obviously, is the 1♠ overcall is "13 cards", then Dbl is always weak.

[Flameous]

We play simple X is T/O (balancedish), bids are constructive+ transfers. (2NT+ showing good 6+ suit)

[dake50]

"Here's what a local expert pair does...

P-0-7 or trapping

dbl-8+ with 5+ hearts

1N-8-12 balanced with a stopper

2m-8+ natural

2H-8+, 3-suited with short major, relays follow

2S-8+ balanced with usually no spade stopper" -straube

 

.. Agree except dbl says misfit other major - thus willing for penalties

now or next as no 4M game likely. 3+N maybe, 5+minor maybe.

Later auctions are now clearer.

.. Pass is forcing below 2S - trust there be an acceptable partial.

A 5-7 passed hand must show next if game is possible.

[keylime]

Transfer Leb is what Larry and I use. Pass is either 0-4 or the trap hand. Dbl is negative.

[straube]

I looked at 100 hands that started with 1C. I set LHO to have exactly 5 spades and 6+ pts. I found that a GF with 5 hearts came up only 4 times while a balanced GF (usually excluding a 5m332) with a spade stopper came up 12 times. Hardly scientific, but I'm a little down on using such an important bid as dbl to show a GF in hearts.

[straube]

Seems like one easy improvement is the following:

 

P GF with 2+ spades

dbl Junk hand

1N NF, Bal, may not have a stopper

2C Limited takeout of ♠

2D ♦s, NF

2H ♥, NF

2S ♣

2N+ GF transfer

 

Since 2♠ is forcing through at least 2N, it seems possible to put some GF hands with ♣s in it as well and assign some other meaning to a direct 2N...

 

I looked at random hands for this. On the plus side, it had a fantastic frequency distribution (pass most common, dbl next, NT next). On the downside, the NT was very frequently wrong-sided and it seemed to matter a lot.

 

I was thinking of...

 

P-GF with 2+

dbl-junk hand or semipositive balanced

1N-5-7, 4+ hearts, nf but could have longer minor

2C-clubs, f but not gf

2D-diamonds, f but not gf

2H-5-7, 6+ hearts

2S-GF hearts

rubensohl

 

This would also frequently wrongside NT, but it uncovers many heart fits

[mycroft]

As always with "interference over strong club" discussions, I would suggest that people look at "what if it isn't spades?"

 

I've seen:

spades

spades or takeout of spades

clubs or takeout of clubs

spades and clubs

spades and either minor

clubs or the reds

I think all of CRO/CRaSh

"13 cards/wants to play somewhere on the 2 level"

 

off the top of my head. My system is simple, and stupid, but has the benefit of being "on" for almost everything thrown at us (we have a few meta-agreements on "what is the suit", and "if they 'can't' pass, what's the difference between third and seventh hand action", which apply/override, but those are general).

 

I know I tell people starting to play a strong club that they're learning 3 systems: "when we don't open 1C", "1C and no interference", and "1C and they bid", and that they need to be about the same in complexity; but anything I can do to limit memory overload without sacrificing too much efficiency, I tend to do.

 

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but those "simulations", at least, looked at "spades only" which is dangerous. Especially when even when they show spades (and another suit), your suit could *be* spades (on a known 4-x break).

[Flameous]

Good point mycroft. We indeed have the exact same system whatever 1♠ means. Obviously if it doesn't promise spades, the T/O double even more suggests a balanced hand. We also have natural transfers to whatever the suits opps might have promised.

Of course it would be optimal to have defense against every defense but that's just not practical.

[akhare]

As always with "interference over strong club" discussions, I would suggest that people look at "what if it isn't spades?"

This is an excellent point. Basically, a defence (1♠) (or even 1♥ for that matter) *assuming* that they have 5+ cards in the overcalled is sub-optimal at best, because of the imminent possibility of an psyche (in addition to other artificial meanings).

 

What mechanisms do others use for exposing potential psyches? It almost seems that one would want to have a call to say: "No, I have that suit and they are lying?"

[straube]

As always with "interference over strong club" discussions, I would suggest that people look at "what if it isn't spades?"

 

I've seen:

spades

spades or takeout of spades

clubs or takeout of clubs

spades and clubs

spades and either minor

clubs or the reds

I think all of CRO/CRaSh

"13 cards/wants to play somewhere on the 2 level"

 

off the top of my head. My system is simple, and stupid, but has the benefit of being "on" for almost everything thrown at us (we have a few meta-agreements on "what is the suit", and "if they 'can't' pass, what's the difference between third and seventh hand action", which apply/override, but those are general).

 

I know I tell people starting to play a strong club that they're learning 3 systems: "when we don't open 1C", "1C and no interference", and "1C and they bid", and that they need to be about the same in complexity; but anything I can do to limit memory overload without sacrificing too much efficiency, I tend to do.

 

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but those "simulations", at least, looked at "spades only" which is dangerous. Especially when even when they show spades (and another suit), your suit could *be* spades (on a known 4-x break).

 

How do you hand 1C (1S) ?

[straube]

So far, I think I like something like what Free plays...

 

P-semipositive or trapping or...

dbl-negative

1N-natural, stopper, forcing

2L-GF

I think I would want to assign meanings to 2S and 2N

[wclass___]

If 1♠ is natural i play..

 

Pass.. 4♥ ~6+ or trap

X .. 6-8 no 4♥

1N GF with stop

2♣.. weak any

2♦.. 5♥+ INV+

2♥.. no or bad ♠ stop

2♠.. 5♣+ GF

2N ..minors 5-7

3♣ ..5♦+GF

3♦ ..6♥+ST

3♥ 6♦+ST

3♠ 1444 GF

 

works well

[straube]

If 1♠ is natural i play..

 

Pass.. 4♥ ~6+ or trap

X .. 6-8 no 4♥

1N GF with stop

2♣.. weak any

2♦.. 5♥+ INV+

2♥.. no or bad ♠ stop

2♠.. 5♣+ GF

2N ..minors 5-7

3♣ ..5♦+GF

3♦ ..6♥+ST

3♥ 6♦+ST

3♠ 1444 GF

 

works well

 

Interesting. I'm a little intrigued with the 2C negative idea. How does that work out for you? I'd also thought to use 1N as a negative but it has obvious severe drawbacks and didn't do well with testing.

[straube]

If 1♠ is natural i play..

 

Pass.. 4♥ ~6+ or trap

X .. 6-8 no 4♥

1N GF with stop

2♣.. weak any

2♦.. 5♥+ INV+

2♥.. no or bad ♠ stop

2♠.. 5♣+ GF

2N ..minors 5-7

3♣ ..5♦+GF

3♦ ..6♥+ST

3♥ 6♦+ST

3♠ 1444 GF

 

works well

 

I'd really like to know more about this. For example 1C (1S) P P dbl shows what? takeout I presume.

 

I looked at hands that bid 2C (negative) and was happy to see that the partnership usually landed somewhere safely. Occasionally it was in 4-2 fits, but there were a lot of 4-4 and better fits, too...many of which wouldn't have been found with a standard 1N rebid.

[wclass___]

I should have added that i play precision only 1st/2nd seat Non-Vulnerable... i think i wouldn't play 2♣ as ''weak any'' if vulnerable, although if one play strong NT it might be playable.

 

I am a firm believer that you should immediately show length of ♥ or lack of it before RHO bids.

[wclass___]

-/-

[straube]

I should have added that i play precision only 1st/2nd seat Non-Vulnerable... i think i wouldn't play 2♣ as ''weak any'' if vulnerable, although if one play strong NT it might be playable.

 

I am a firm believer that you should immediately show length of ♥ or lack of it before RHO bids.

 

We play 14-16 NT. How do you play 1C (1S) 2C P 2S and 1C (1S) 2C P 2N?

[wclass___]

We play 14-16 NT. How do you play 1C (1S) 2C P 2S and 1C (1S) 2C P 2N?

2d/2h 4+

2S shows quite a lot of extra strength, catch all, F

2N is natural, extra strength, NF

3x good suit, extra strength, NF

[straube]

I tried to tabulate it for 100 hands. It required a lot of judgment because many hands could use one bid or another. For example Kxx xx Kxx Axxxx could be described with 1N or 2S. I used the guideline of 6+ or 6-8 but this meant that a large number of 5pt hands had to make the less elegant bid of 2C.

 

9.... P...... 4H-6+ or trap

15.. dbl... 6-8, not 4H

9.....1N.....gf with stop

31...2C.....0-5

15...2D.....5+ hearts and 6+

8.....2H.....GF no stop, fairly balanced

8.....2S......GF clubs

1.....2N.....6-8, 5/5 minors

3.....3C.....GF diamonds

1.....3S......GF 1444

 

Even at 0-4 I'm concerned that the 2C bid occurs too often. Pass ought to be very frequent.

[straube]

Similar to Free's structure...and with 100 tabulated hands

 

35.....P.....5-7 without 5 hearts OR trapping for spades

25....dbl...0-4 any

18....1N...8+ with full stopper, nondirectional, may have 4 hearts, may have a stiff

6......2C...8+ with five hearts

7......2D...8+ without full stopper, nondirectional, denies 4 hearts

6......2H...5-7, 5+ hearts

5......2S....8+ with four hearts, may or may not have longer minor, tends to deny a spade stopper

2......2N...8+ with six+ clubs, denies 4 hearts

2......3C...8+ with six+ diamonds, denies 4 hearts

0......3D...8+ 1-3-(54)

0......3H-8+ 1-4-4-4

0......3S-8+ 5/5 minors

 

After 1C (1S) 2C P 2D is a waiting bid that gives responder a chance to show a sixth heart, deny or show a stopper, or show a minor suit

 

After a semipositive, opener's 2S rebid creates a GF.

 

otherwise continuations are fairly natural

[Free]

I'm not sure why you insist on a structure where you can't bid ♠ natural, while in another thread you claim the following:

One spade is an attractive overcall to make after a strong club by LHO and I've seen people do that with 4 and even 3 spades.

I agree that 1♠ overcalls are very attractive with all sorts of hands. Apparently people are gentle against your strong 1♣ opening. Over here we get a huge amount of psychs or random 1♠ bids (this is typical for 1♠ overcalls, a 1♥ overcall for example is usually real). I prefer to use as few structures as possible to handle interference over strong ♣ openings. Since the 1♠ overcall can have many different meanings and is a psych much more frequent than any other call, I prefer to just ignore it rather than having 10 different schemes for every possible 1♠ overcall and still not being able to handle a psych.

 

Imo it's very important to be able to ignore a 1♠ overcall (like in a natural system (1m)-p-(1M)-2M is natural). The opportunities to trap opponents are very rare because they can easily find a better fit most of the time and stay low.

 

If I knew my opps can't bid ♠ after my overcall, I'd bid 1♠ even more and let them suffer when ♠ is their own suit.