re systems and carding

[Joylson]

I was wondering why the Directors do not add a statement in a tournament, where it is obligatory to announce system and carding, that one must also say sayc standard if one is using that. By the time I ask or have to watch what they do it wastes time. Today it was 2 players that also had no profiles so I am left with cliking on all their bids or watching them closely to see what they are really playing. I seems that it would be an easy add on to Announce your system and sarding each round some statement like even if playing sayc, standard. Would appreciate you comments. Thx and also thx for all the hard working TDs - you are great!

[allspice]

TDs are exhausted of asking players to announce their system and carding at the start of the round.

I've even set up tournaments where a profile stating system and carding were mandatory. And to no avail

I finally got tired of fighting and booting players who didn't comply with the rule.

Most of the players don't read tournament rules, regulations nor requirements.

It's not the TDs - Players don't follow rules. I just refuse to play with somebody who doesn't have

his system in his profile, his skill level and a country. Just to know what language he will understand.

But as long as 'private' and 'other', and blank CC are allowed, the problem will persist.

Veronica - Allspice

[Joylson]

TDs are exhausted of asking players to announce their system and carding at the start of the round.

I've even set up tournaments where a profile stating system and carding were mandatory. And to no avail

I finally got tired of fighting and booting players who didn't comply with the rule.

Most of the players don't read tournament rules, regulations nor requirements.

It's not the TDs - Players don't follow rules. I just refuse to play with somebody who doesn't have

his system in his profile, his skill level and a country. Just to know what language he will understand.

But as long as 'private' and 'other', and blank CC are allowed, the problem will persist.

Veronica - Allspice

[shintaro]

TDs are exhausted of asking players to announce their system and carding at the start of the round.

I've even set up tournaments where a profile stating system and carding were mandatory. And to no avail

I finally got tired of fighting and booting players who didn't comply with the rule.

Most of the players don't read tournament rules, regulations nor requirements.

It's not the TDs - Players don't follow rules. I just refuse to play with somebody who doesn't have

his system in his profile, his skill level and a country. Just to know what language he will understand.

But as long as 'private' and 'other', and blank CC are allowed, the problem will persist.

Veronica - Allspice

 

 

mmm is the main problem that people play different things with different partners (eg Weak NT or Strong NT Weak 2's Strong 2's ) where would you put it and what would you put

 

 

But pairs should/must tell opponents what they are playing

[allspice]

If you have a list of your conventions, as your system just check: common conventions are on. If not, just standard system. Not so difficult. I play in the Indi Tournaments and when my pd bids, I just check his profile. If no info, I presume he plays mine. If a convention, I presume he bids his. And if this worries you, you are a player with enough knowledge to have an idea of what all conventions mean.

 

I'm a TD and if an experts claims his intemediate opponent didn't alert a convention, and his opp has a complete profile, I don't take action. An expert can't say he doesn't know how to check a profile and, for example, deduce if a 2!h bid is weak or not. Now, if an expert with no data in his profile, playing against an intermediate, doesn't alert 1club precision, of course I adjust the hand against the expert. Its just fair. If you say you are an expert, behave as one. (same goes for advanced)

If your profile is empty, you MUST alert EVERYTHING or be penalized.

allspice/veru

 

mmm is the main problem that people play different things with different partners (eg Weak NT or Strong NT Weak 2's Strong 2's ) where would you put it and what would you put

 

 

But pairs should/must tell opponents what they are playing

[jillybean]

 

I'm a TD and if an experts claims his intemediate opponent didn't alert a convention, and his opp has a complete profile, I don't take action. An expert can't say he doesn't know how to check a profile and, for example, deduce if a 2!h bid is weak or not. Now, if an expert with no data in his profile, playing against an intermediate, doesn't alert 1club precision, of course I adjust the hand against the expert. Its just fair. If you say you are an expert, behave as one. (same goes for advanced)

If your profile is empty, you MUST alert EVERYTHING or be penalized.

allspice/veru

Many may agree and call this "fair" but it's not bridge.

 

I'm not sure where this insistance on announcing your system and carding has come from. Pairs playing something other than sayc or 2/1 often announce their system, as they should. A question about carding is usualy asked when the information is needed. No one announces system or carding in a live pairs game unless they are playing an unusual system or methods, why is it required online.

[allspice]

In live bridge, at the club, you usually know who you are playing against. And you know your partner. And players who don't play standard system have a card over the table where you can read without asking. Maybe at a familiar or regular bridge session you don't make announcements: but you must do them on a tournament or be penalized. But here, in BBO you play with people from all around the world, playing hundreds of systems. So, you should be forced to have a system in your profile. It might not be important when you are playing a free tournament but when you are playing a pay-to-play tournament, like a speedball, where time is short, you need a quick way to understand your opp's bid.

I don't see the inconvenience in entering your standard system -SAYC, 2/1, ACOL, SEF, Polish Club, Precision, etc- and a list of conventions, -Stayman, Transf, RKCB 1430, Mich cue, unNT, short club, std card. or UDCA- and be asked if opp doesn't understand a bid. It's nothing that would cause exhaustion to anyone. I even have a doc with the systems I play with each pd and just copy and paste when I change partners. And I have my own profile for Indi Tournaments or when I play with a new pd . That is just politeness.

Bridge on line is not Live Bridge. It's different. You don't know the person you have in front, nor at your sides. You are not asked to give away private information: just the system you play.

allspice/Veru

 

 

Many may agree and call this "fair" but it's not bridge.

 

I'm not sure where this insistance on announcing your system and carding has come from. Pairs playing something other than sayc or 2/1 often announce their system, as they should. A question about carding is usualy asked when the information is needed. No one announces system or carding in a live pairs game unless they are playing an unusual system or methods, why is it required online.

[shintaro]

In live bridge, at the club, you usually know who you are playing against. And you know your partner. And players who don't play standard system have a card over the table where you can read without asking. Maybe at a familiar or regular bridge session you don't make announcements: but you must do them on a tournament or be penalized. But here, in BBO you play with people from all around the world, playing hundreds of systems. So, you should be forced to have a system in your profile. It might not be important when you are playing a free tournament but when you are playing a pay-to-play tournament, like a speedball, where time is short, you need a quick way to understand your opp's bid.

I don't see the inconvenience in entering your standard system -SAYC, 2/1, ACOL, SEF, Polish Club, Precision, etc- and a list of conventions, -Stayman, Transf, RKCB 1430, Mich cue, unNT, short club, std card. or UDCA- and be asked if opp doesn't understand a bid. It's nothing that would cause exhaustion to anyone. I even have a doc with the systems I play with each pd and just copy and paste when I change partners. And I have my own profile for Indi Tournaments or when I play with a new pd . That is just politeness.

Bridge on line is not Live Bridge. It's different. You don't know the person you have in front, nor at your sides. You are not asked to give away private information: just the system you play.

allspice/Veru

 

 

sorry your premise is slightly flawed

 

Take myself I Play Acol on line However with 1 partner I only play Weak NT NO Transfers strongs 2's

 

With another I play Weak NT FULL Transfers Roman Blackwood (NB never RKCB) Strong 2's

 

There is just not room to put all these on the Profile However I do run FDC's for both

 

I am also a Professional TD and expect Players in the real world to have 2 properly completed Convention Cards

 

On here I tell them they Should tell opponents what their methods are

[jillybean]

In live bridge, at the club, you usually know who you are playing against. And you know your partner. And players who don't play standard system have a card over the table where you can read without asking. Maybe at a familiar or regular bridge session you don't make announcements: but you must do them on a tournament or be penalized. But here, in BBO you play with people from all around the world, playing hundreds of systems. So, you should be forced to have a system in your profile. It might not be important when you are playing a free tournament but when you are playing a pay-to-play tournament, like a speedball, where time is short, you need a quick way to understand your opp's bid.

I don't see the inconvenience in entering your standard system -SAYC, 2/1, ACOL, SEF, Polish Club, Precision, etc- and a list of conventions, -Stayman, Transf, RKCB 1430, Mich cue, unNT, short club, std card. or UDCA- and be asked if opp doesn't understand a bid. It's nothing that would cause exhaustion to anyone. I even have a doc with the systems I play with each pd and just copy and paste when I change partners. And I have my own profile for Indi Tournaments or when I play with a new pd . That is just politeness.

Bridge on line is not Live Bridge. It's different. You don't know the person you have in front, nor at your sides. You are not asked to give away private information: just the system you play.

allspice/Veru

I agree that people playing $ tournaments should make all efforts to fully disclose the system & methods they are playing. I do question the benefit to the opposition of announcing "sayc std" or having a group of convention names listed in your profile.

[matmat]

If you have a list of your conventions, as your system just check: common conventions are on. If not, just standard system. Not so difficult. I play in the Indi Tournaments and when my pd bids, I just check his profile. If no info, I presume he plays mine. If a convention, I presume he bids his. And if this worries you, you are a player with enough knowledge to have an idea of what all conventions mean.

 

I'm a TD and if an experts claims his intemediate opponent didn't alert a convention, and his opp has a complete profile, I don't take action. An expert can't say he doesn't know how to check a profile and, for example, deduce if a 2!h bid is weak or not. Now, if an expert with no data in his profile, playing against an intermediate, doesn't alert 1club precision, of course I adjust the hand against the expert. Its just fair. If you say you are an expert, behave as one. (same goes for advanced)

If your profile is empty, you MUST alert EVERYTHING or be penalized.

allspice/veru

 

Q1. When you are playing and your profile and your partner's profile are filled out, but have contradictory information, say, yours says "Jacoby transfers," your partner's says "No transfers." how do you decide whose profile you are playing without discussion? if you do discuss, do you make sure to remember to tell your opps every round which profile you are playing?

 

Q2. When the same situation arises when you are directing, how do you know whose profile a pair is playing?

 

Q3. Alertable bids are alertable regardless of whether they happen to be listed on the profile (or convention card!). I can't not alert my artificial strong 1♣ opening simply because my p happens to have it listed in the profile. The point of the alert is to bring the call's unusual meaning to the attention of the opponents, and, in principle, to expedite the game so they don't have to read through the ridiculously crammed mess that is listed in people's profiles.

 

Q4. Do you realize that not penalizing intermediates (or beginners) teaches them that they can get away with things like this, therefore not reinforcing good active ethics and not educating people about their responsibilities at the bridge table?

 

Q5. Why do you assume that an expert from the other side of the world will happen to know the conventions that are popular in your part of the world? or how you chose to abbreviate them?

 

Q6. do you realize that natural bids in a natural system need not be alerted and that your statement of "If your profile is empty, you MUST alert EVERYTHING or be penalized. " is ridiculous?

 

Q7. You understand that there is a feature of BBO that allows for convention cards to be loaded? There is no requirement to have systems posted in the profile. Furthermore, since people play with may different partners, they may play several different systems; there is simply no way to convey that information in the very limited space of the profile.

 

 

I really can't stand the guessing game of individual tournaments or random partners on BBO. If you are going to be doing something as stupid as sitting down opposite a player of unknown quality, unknown background, with possibly an elevated sense of self worth, while not discussion AT ALL of system while relying on 80 characters of cryptic gibberish in their profile that they probably copied off of someone else's profile, don't complain about the crappy game you are having.

 

Do not expect a good quality, structured game from a random pick-up partner.

 

On the tournament side, if you are going to be directing an individual tournament don't control people's profiles. Enforce a single convention card for all pairs (i think this is possible on BBO), or enforce that each pair have a posted convention card (note : this is NOT the same as the profile).

[allspice]

Q1: I don't play with random partners. And when I do, I agree which profile we are using beforehand. And I announce at the beginning of the round 'pd's profile' or 'my profile'.

 

Q2: If they didn't announce, I don't decide: they didn't announce so all bids must be alerted (and by all, I mean ALERTABLE bids, not natural bids)

 

Q3: You are right, alertable bids HAVE to be alerted, even if they are mentioned in the profile

 

Q4: I do realize that not penalizing Beginners or Intermediate might not be, as you say, the best. But beginners or intermediates usually forget to ALERT a 2 weak opening bid, or a transfer. And when playing against an expert, and the round has a bad result for the expert, you can't imagine how many experts claim 'damage' to get an AVE instead of the bad result. And that is not bridge. So I tell the beginner or Intermediate that they should alert any bid that is not natural, and I inform them the rule, I enter a note in their profile to remember next time, and that's it. If this happens against another beginner or intermediate, I might consider a different position, if there was real damage. But, experts should ask for explanation before the 'damage' is done and not wait to get a profit when they know their partnership is not getting a good score..

 

Q5: An Expert, if you look for the definition in BBO, is a player who has enjoyed success in major National tournaments. An Advanced is someone who has been CONSISTENTLY successful in clubs or minor tournaments. None of this categories should ignore other systems. And if you can't recognize Texas from a preemtive, just change your category. But don't worry, usually Beginners and Intermediates do not play complicated conventions and the convention they don't alert usually are weak 2 openings and transfers. Sometimes stayman and blackwood. Because those are all the conventions they use. And an Advanced or Expert player should know them and recognize them. And if they don't ask, they can't complain later about them. Now, when the issue is expert vs experts, I expect an expert to know what he should alert or not. And if he doesn't, he didn't play and was successful in major National tournaments. So, he is not an expert. But if he wants to post like one, he must behave like one.

 

Q6: You are right. But when I said you MUST ALERT EVERYTHING, I meant 'everything alertable'. Presumed you would understand.

 

Q7: You are an Advanced player. You should know that you must alert bids 'if you have an agreement with your partner' . That means, if your partner is a sub, and you bid unNT, he has to 'understand' but you have no previous agreement. So there is where the profile comes useful. If you have a hand that can be described using that convention, and it appear in your partner's profile, use it. If it doesn't, you know he might not understand. So it's your risk. Profile should just have the basic for an occasional pd. CC should be loaded for any regular pd (in my case, I have 5 CC with different pd plus a favourite one).

 

You are right about individual tournaments. But usually its a good practice for newcomers who don't have a group of regular pd to play with. You meet many people with whom you then might make a good partnership. I play many 'Free Express Fun Tournaments' and I have a nice pd I find there. Of course, one, from, lets say, over 100 that I met. But its a good practice when you just have a half hour to spend.

 

When I put up individual tournaments, I usually do it enforcing a system (SAYC, std c) and I do it for beginners or intermediates, and with pre-dealt hands on one issue, that is announced in the tournament's title: un-blocking; ducking; counting; listening; leading; etc. I thing BBO has tons of tournaments but very few for low skilled players that want to improve and where they can learn something and practice it. Of course I limit the levels that have access to it to Beginners and Intermediates. I've done some for Novices and Beginners too about subjects choose the finesse or discards, or trick count.

Pair Tournaments I create are usually for Advanced or Experts, 5 minutes per board, SAYC std if no system in profile, alert everything that is not SAYC std c, only Advanced + players.

I keep my tournaments small. If you want a quality tournament you need 1 TD every 15 tables at most. So according to the TDs is the size of my tournament. And when adjusting boards, I don't just 'use the Gib'. I use my brain, which, for the moment, works better.

I blacklist runners and stallers. And I can assure you that I have very few replacements to do. TDs have time to go from 1 table to another just checking if everybody is playing, if there is any irregularity in bidding, and be certain that the tournaments is going on smoothly.

 

So, you may see we have some coincidences in our ideas.

 

Rgds,

allspice/veru

[blackshoe]

When I said "the sky is green", I meant "the sky is blue". I presumed you would understand. :ph34r:

[sallyally]

When I put up individual tournaments, I usually do it enforcing a system (SAYC, std c) and I do it for beginners or intermediates, and with pre-dealt hands on one issue, that is announced in the tournament's title: un-blocking; ducking; counting; listening; leading; etc. I thing BBO has tons of tournaments but very few for low skilled players that want to improve and where they can learn something and practice it. Of course I limit the levels that have access to it to Beginners and Intermediates. I've done some for Novices and Beginners too about subjects choose the finesse or discards, or trick count.

Pair Tournaments I create are usually for Advanced or Experts, 5 minutes per board, SAYC std if no system in profile, alert everything that is not SAYC std c, only Advanced + players.

I keep my tournaments small. If you want a quality tournament you need 1 TD every 15 tables at most. So according to the TDs is the size of my tournament. And when adjusting boards, I don't just 'use the Gib'. I use my brain, which, for the moment, works better.

I blacklist runners and stallers. And I can assure you that I have very few replacements to do. TDs have time to go from 1 table to another just checking if everybody is playing, if there is any irregularity in bidding, and be certain that the tournaments is going on smoothly.

 

So, you may see we have some coincidences in our ideas.

 

Rgds,

allspice/veru

 

So, under what name do you run your tournaments, and what days and times please?

[matmat]

 

Q4: I do realize that not penalizing Beginners or Intermediate might not be, as you say, the best. But beginners or intermediates usually forget to ALERT a 2 weak opening bid, or a transfer.

 

 

In a lot of jurisdictions a weak 2 is not alertable, as it is natural. Muidberg, wilkosz, etc. of course are.

 

 

Q5: An Expert, if you look for the definition in BBO, is a player who has enjoyed success in major National tournaments. An Advanced is someone who has been CONSISTENTLY successful in clubs or minor tournaments. None of this categories should ignore other systems.

 

 

There was a discussion about not making too close a connection between a collection of systems and a self rating in context of defining various levels. Had something to do with a post on another forum. Maybe our resident search engine operatore (i'm looking at you, gwnn) can dig it out.

 

If i recall correctly, one of the principal points was that people from different parts of the world will not be familiar with certain conventions, even if they fit the definition of advanced (or even expert) in their location. For instance, I wouldn't expect a north american advanced player to have much of a knowledge of ACOL or its various gadjets, like, say, Benji; nor would I expect someone from a country where precision is the dominant system to have very good knowledge of north american 2/1, but for all we know they could be winning local and regional tournaments.

 

Q6: You are right. But when I said you MUST ALERT EVERYTHING, I meant 'everything alertable'. Presumed you would understand.

 

I understand "ALERT EVERYTHING" as, well... alert everything...

 

Q7: You are an Advanced player. You should know that you must alert bids 'if you have an agreement with your partner' . That means, if your partner is a sub, and you bid unNT, he has to 'understand' but you have no previous agreement. So there is where the profile comes useful. If you have a hand that can be described using that convention, and it appear in your partner's profile, use it. If it doesn't, you know he might not understand. So it's your risk. Profile should just have the basic for an occasional pd. CC should be loaded for any regular pd (in my case, I have 5 CC with different pd plus a favourite one).

 

I would argue that if a sub comes in (who is not a regular partner, mind you), that a system should be imposed on the pair for the remainder of the tournament. SAYC, 2/1, or whatever. Relying on these two people to agreeing on whose profile to use, and remembering to communicate that clearly to the opponents is unreasonable, imo.

 

You are right about individual tournaments. But usually its a good practice for newcomers who don't have a group of regular pd to play with. You meet many people with whom you then might make a good partnership. I play many 'Free Express Fun Tournaments' and I have a nice pd I find there. Of course, one, from, lets say, over 100 that I met. But its a good practice when you just have a half hour to spend.

 

When I put up individual tournaments, I usually do it enforcing a system (SAYC, std c) and I do it for beginners or intermediates, and with pre-dealt hands on one issue, that is announced in the tournament's title: un-blocking; ducking; counting; listening; leading; etc. I thing BBO has tons of tournaments but very few for low skilled players that want to improve and where they can learn something and practice it. Of course I limit the levels that have access to it to Beginners and Intermediates. I've done some for Novices and Beginners too about subjects choose the finesse or discards, or trick count.

Pair Tournaments I create are usually for Advanced or Experts, 5 minutes per board, SAYC std if no system in profile, alert everything that is not SAYC std c, only Advanced + players.

I keep my tournaments small. If you want a quality tournament you need 1 TD every 15 tables at most. So according to the TDs is the size of my tournament. And when adjusting boards, I don't just 'use the Gib'. I use my brain, which, for the moment, works better.

I blacklist runners and stallers. And I can assure you that I have very few replacements to do. TDs have time to go from 1 table to another just checking if everybody is playing, if there is any irregularity in bidding, and be certain that the tournaments is going on smoothly.

 

So, you may see we have some coincidences in our ideas.

 

Rgds,

allspice/veru

Generally sounds like a good thing. My main quip is insisting on using the profile for this sort of exchange; I don't think it is reliable, it can be confusing. When there is lots of chat opps might have to scroll back up a lot to figure out which of the two conflicting profiles is in use.