Cascade Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 [hv=pc=n&e=sq53h873dj964cqjt&d=s&v=b&b=11&a=3sdp]133|200[/hv] IMPs against a Datum converted to VPs. Double is optional - described at the table as "takeout or penalty I have to decide". What call do you make? What other calls do you consider making? If you consider it relevant, in a similar situation with a 2=4=3=4 3-count earlier in the match you pulled a double of 4♠ to 5♣ but that time the vulnerability was favourable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexJonson Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 My choice is call the Director (as North). As East I get a new agreement or a new partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted April 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 My choice is call the Director (as North). As East I get a new agreement or a new partner. Why does north need a director? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexJonson Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 Inadequate disclosure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 Inadequate disclosure. Why? What's inadequate about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted April 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 Inadequate disclosure. She meant sometimes the double is penalties and sometimes it is takeout. I think that means she has to look at her hand and decide. Anyway north didn't ask so he has no reason to call the director. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pran Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 I first began learning bridge (Culbertson) some 60+ years ago, and one thing I remember is that double of an opening bid (except NT) at the one or two level was for takeout while double of an opening bid at the three-level (weak) was "optional". This meant that doubler's partner had the choice of selecting between bidding his own suit and pass for penalties. So I don't see how "optional" can be an inadequate description if a partnership still uses that kind of doubles today, especially not if they (when asked) explains the implication? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted April 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 Anyway the problem isnt with the explanation. Anyone want to tell me what you would bid and answer the other questions in the opening post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahydra Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 4D, I briefly considered 3NT but think that's more than a bit dodgy. ahydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 Im not bidding a minor at the 4 level on this garbage, pass, I hate it but don't like any other option either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted April 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 Oh I should have added Swiss Pairs scored by IMPs against the Datum if that makes a difference to anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 I would bid 4♦ and consider pass or 3NT. But what is logical for me might not be logical on the planet inhabited by people who play double this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdct Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 I'm going to pass as I figure that if partner is good enough for us to be making 3NT, we are more than likely going to getting at least 500 which should score up pretty well as in a swiss pairs field the people who underbid and/or underplay will always drag the average for a hand where a vul game is makable to the high-400s/low-500s and we have some good upside if we happen to get it for 800 or 1100 and if we only get +200 we probably don't have game on anyway. The big danger is having to write down -730 which will probably happen one in five times, so I need to pick up my penalty on the other four hands! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellSpyder Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Pass seems clear to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMB1 Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Double is optional - described at the table as "takeout or penalty I have to decide". "optional" to me means "strong balanced, partner can decide to bid or pass" "takeout or penalty [partner has] to decide [which it is]" sounds like strong unbalanced, either shortage or length in their suit. Some play "takeout or penalty" of pass/correct bids: 2♦(=multi)-Pass-2♥(=P/C)-X(=hearts, or takeout of hearts) So is this double optional (balanced) or "takeout or penalty" (unbalanced)? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 She meant sometimes the double is penalties and sometimes it is takeout. That isn't the same thing as "optional", to my mind. If I had to decide whether partner had a takeout double or a penalty double I would be sure it was a takeout double, so I would bid. If I were told it was an optional double, I would pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 I would vomit and pass.There is a fair prospect of going for a penalty of a similar magnitude as the cost of doubling them into game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexJonson Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Why? What's inadequate about it? I think you will find if you read the remaining posts that posters have radically different understandings of the meaning of 'optional double'. Otherwise why anyone would consider bidding 4D opposite a strong balanced hand escapes me. You can't add up logical alternative votes (IMO) among people who understand the auction very differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 It wasn't described (by the players at the table) as "optional" — that was something Cascade threw in. So I don't think the question 'what does "optional" mean?' is relevant. The question is whether "takeout or penalty, I have to decide" is accurate. Assuming it is accurate, I bid 4♦. I consider passing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Since the question is in "rulings", I will guess that East passed. And this time opener did not have an 8-bagger & catch the perfect dummy -- so, when East applied the LOTT, it worked and the opponents were unhappy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluejak Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 A clear and obvious pass if it is an optional double. But "takeout or penalty I have to decide" is nothing like an optional double and I would ask exactly what it means. Well, since it seems to be my partner I would find out what I am playing. So, please tell us, how does my partner play this double, please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted April 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 It wasn't described (by the players at the table) as "optional" — that was something Cascade threw in. So I don't think the question 'what does "optional" mean?' is relevant. The question is whether "takeout or penalty, I have to decide" is accurate. Assuming it is accurate, I bid 4♦. I consider passing. To be clear. The double was described by the partner of the doubler as "takeout or penalty I have to decide" during the auction. Later when the director was at the table and the description was repeated the doubler added "that is correct we play optional doubles". I guess the options are "takeout" or "penalty". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted April 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Since the question is in "rulings", I will guess that East passed. And this time opener did not have an 8-bagger & catch the perfect dummy -- so, when East applied the LOTT, it worked and the opponents were unhappy. Well kind of ... This was board seven of a ten board match. [hv=pc=n&s=sakt9764h96dt3c74&w=sj82hq52dak87cak5&n=shakjt4dq52c98632&e=sq53h873dj964cqjt&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=3sdppp]399|300[/hv] Two boards earlier ... [hv=pc=n&s=sakqjt986ha4d42ck&w=s3hkjdakj75ca9843&n=s54hq9872d986cq62&e=s72ht653dqt3cjt75&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=pp4sdp5cppp]399|300[/hv] Again the double was optional or the same as seven. Well technically this board was played first and the descriptions were given on this board and when board seven came along the explanation was that the double was the same as on board five. The major problem was that on board five the double came an agreed 30+ seconds after the 4♠ bid was made. There was a stop card procedure in place which was used correctly so that means the double was in excess of 20 seconds after the removal of the stop card. This double was pulled. Whereas on board seven the double came during the ten seconds that the stop card was still on the table. In the doublers own words "almost immediately after he bid". This double was left in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Without board five having preceeded, board 7 is what it is. But now (with #5) we know how they handle two-suiters opposite preempts. How does the doubler's presentation vary when he has support for all 3 unbid suits? The method does have the advantage of saving a NT overcall for something else :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 [hv=pc=n&e=sq53h873dj964cqjt&d=s&v=b&b=11&a=3sdp]133|200| IMPs against a Datum converted to VPs. Double is optional - described at the table as "takeout or penalty I have to decide".What call do you make? What other calls do you consider making?If you consider it relevant, in a similar situation with a 2=4=3=4 3-count earlier in the match you pulled a double of 4♠ to 5♣ but that time the vulnerability was favourable.[/hv] Does "Optional" mean: A vaguely competitive pudding with three cards (or honour doubleton) in opponents' suit. Then _P = 10, 2N = 5, 3♦ = 4.Either clear penalty or clear take-out and advancer is meant to judge, from his own hand, which is the more likely. Then 3♦ = 10, _P = 7.The earlier auction may be relevant, but IMO, at a higher level, the take-out interpretation was more likely. Also, although the penalty risk was higher, the up-side of bidding and making a game was greater.The major problem was that on board five the double came an agreed 30+ seconds after the 4♠ bid was made. There was a stop card procedure in place which was used correctly so that means the double was in excess of 20 seconds after the removal of the stop card. This double was pulled. Whereas on board seven the double came during the ten seconds that the stop card was still on the table. In the doublers own words "almost immediately after he bid". This double was left in.I've now read Cascade's second post and agree that the tempo-changes should arouse the Director's suspicions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.