How to explore the right contract?

[zasanya]

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System 2/1 .By 2 ♣ rebid opener has shown 5/4 either way in minors 2♠ is FSF to Game .Your priority is to show 3 card support .So your P now knows you have 1-3-(5 4) shape and 12-17 hcp. Your cc includes minorwood and cue bids,

Q.1) What is 4♣? cue bid or miorwood?

Q.2) If responder had bid 3♠ instead of 4 ♣ is he still looking for a stopper or cue bidding for a ♥

contract?

Q.3) In either of the cases can opener assume a 5-3 or better fit in ♥?

[pooltuna]

gut reaction

1)Qbid for ♥

2)Qbid for ♥

3)yes

[Quantumcat]

Q.1) What is 4♣? cue bid or miorwood?

It can't be minorwood, or you would have bid 4♣ immediately after 2♣ (presuming that's how you play minorwood). It shouldn't be a cuebid, because you had no way of setting clubs and showing interest in slam (3♣ after 2♣ nonforcing, and 4♣ is minorwood). It has to be setting clubs and showing interest in slam. Else you have no way to do this.

Q.2) If responder had bid 3♠ instead of 4 ♣ is he still looking for a stopper or cue bidding for a ♥

contract?

It can't be asking for a stopper, as opener has shown at most one spade. Similarly it shouldn't be a cue, because both of you already know you have at least 2nd round control in the suit and bidding for the sake of hearing yourself talk isn't smart. If responder made that bid and I was opener, I would probably take it as slam interest in whichever of my minors was longer. But of course it is open to interpretation since the two "easiest" meanings don't make sense.

 

Q.3) In either of the cases can opener assume a 5-3 or better fit in ♥?

No. There are many reasons for bidding 4th suit forcing.

 

You will have a LOT more luck if you agree these standard things:

 

1. Raise responder's major immediately with three cards if you have 11-14(15) HCP.

2. Belatedly show 3-card support if you are stronger than this.

3. Make the cheapest response to 4th suit forcing that could be useful.

 

If you need to find a 5-3 heart fit you would have found it right away, and if opener was strong, you must be on the way to slam now (you used 4th suit forcing, and opener showed 16+ HCP) so have plenty of room to find the right spot.

[JLOGIC]

I thought quantumcat was french

[Quantumcat]

I speak french but am not french. Maybe you saw me talking to a french person on BBO :-)

[aguahombre]

Everything QCAT posted --except with some hands I might have bid 2C instead of 2H with that range and shape...but not with 6-high in the suit.

 

Responder could have bid 3S or 3NT to show slam interest in hearts and five of them due to FSF. His auction shows slammish but only four clubs ---due to not responding 2C the first time. We use Minorwood, but QCATS' post explains why it doesn't apply here.

[Quantumcat]

Everything QCAT posted --except with some hands I might have bid 2C instead of 2H with that range and shape...but not with 6-high in the suit.

 

Oh yeah I might add that you are well within your rights to choose to not raise with three cards and 11-15 HCP, but that will mean you can never show three card support later (you'll probably give simple preference later on, and responder will think you have two). If you don't show it right away and then show it later, you'll be showing 16+ HCP (e.g. 1♥-1♠, 2♣-2♥, 2♠).

[whereagles]

Q.1) What is 4♣? cue bid or miorwood?

Q.2) If responder had bid 3♠ instead of 4 ♣ is he still looking for a stopper or cue bidding for a ♥

contract?

Q.3) In either of the cases can opener assume a 5-3 or better fit in ♥?

 

Q1. You are on very shaky ground here. If you can be 100% sure pard would have bid

 

1♦ 1♥

2♣ 4♣

 

with a slam try in clubs (regardless of it being minorwood or just plain support), then you could make a case for the actual auction to show a heart slam try on a 5-3 fit. I would, however, be very weary to interpret it this way without explict agreements. But if you don't have explicit agreements you basically have no clue what pard intented with his 2♠+4♣ auction. It's anyone's guess.

 

Q2. This one is easier on paper. Since there's no support for clubs, the club/heart fit dilemma is solved: this is a cue in support of hearts. Probably the ace, as opener should have a singleton. But then again, you'd need to be very sure of pard's intentions. For example, if you have QuantumCat across, you could be in for a mix-up :) So, while easy on paper, in practice it's again anyone's guess.

 

Q3. In Q2 probably yes, but again I'd be weary without explicit agreements.

 

Final note: if you notice that in Q2 one can cue with just about anything (opposite singleton, xxx is just as good as Axx), you can make a case for Q1 to show a club fit for sure.

 

As a rule, post 3rd/4th-suit auctions are very underdeveloped, regardless of system. Common-sense solves many of the problems, but you're always worrying whether pard is in the same wavelength. It is one of the areas where discussing a good set of rules could improve one's game considerably.

[kenrexford]

First, but not directly on point, one partner and I agreed that if Responder can bid 2NT on the third bid AFTER Opener shows fragmentary support, this agrees the major. This settles a lot of problems and keeps auctions low. E.g., consider:

 

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♥(4SF)

2♠(3154-ish)-2NT(agrees spades, let's start cuebidding)

 

In this auction, however, we have one of the worst-case-scenarios for 4SF because of the space swallowing. Responder may well want to support either minor as a slam try without bypassing 3NT, such that simply jumping to four of the minor is a poor substitute.

 

It probably makes sense, therefore, to have Opener most of the time simply answer the heart question (reserving other rebids for VERY specific hands). E.g., perhaps 2NT denies three hearts but 3♣ promises three hearts. Then, one could end up with the following:

 

1♦-1♥

2♣-2♠

2NT(not three hearts)... Anything after this could be natural, logical.

 

1♦-1♥

2♣-2♠

3♣(three hearts)-?

 

1. 3♦ = concerned notrump probe hand

2. 3♥ = confirms hearts, slam interest

3. 3♠ = club fit, slam interest

4. 3NT = diamond fit, slam interest

 

Something like that. Again, Responder could blast past 3NT, but he would only do this with very specific hand types.

[zasanya]

Thank you guys for your replies.The actual hand and subsequent tragi-comic biding of me and my P was as follows.

 

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My 4♣ was intended as minorwood not realising that P would take it as cue .His 4 ♦was intended as cue but i took it as 1st step in our version of minorwood .It asks P to reply to rkc in ♣ rather than answering .At this point I should have realised what was happening as there cannot be a reason for him to ask rather than answer.I answered 5 ♣=2 kc with ♣ Q and my P took it to mean ♣AK and I had to play 6♥ which had no chance.

The correct contract seems to be 5 clubs.If instead of ♠ Ace N had ♣ Ace then 6 ♣ seems reasonable.

Without a relay system it doesnt seem possible to accurately reach 5 ♣.Most systems will take you to 3 NT or 6 ♣.

I have suggested to my P the following scheme

1♦-1♥/♠-2♣-FSF

2NT= stopper in FS -3C by responder =looking for 3 card support for his Major Now if opener shows 3 card support he bids it showing a (1-3)-(5-4) shape with singleton Ace.

Do you think this scheme will work?

[whereagles]

Maybe. I would advise to first check the literature for post-4th suit auctions.

 

Still, how come 6H failed? You ruff a spade and that's 12 tricks. Good bidding! B-)

[aguahombre]

Maybe. I would advise to first check the literature for post-4th suit auctions.

 

Still, how come 6H failed? You ruff a spade and that's 12 tricks. Good bidding! B-)

 

If you rough a spade East's trump eight becomes a trick.

[whereagles]

ah yes

[Yu18772]

 

You will have a LOT more luck if you agree these standard things:

 

1. Raise responder's major immediately with three cards if you have 11-14(15) HCP.

 

I dont know about LOT more luck, but definitely much more opportunities to practice playing 4:3 fit when NT is cold, and it is not necessarily standard (at least in my experience)......

 

 

 

[mcphee]

The 4C bid for me on this auction sets C as trump showing slam interest.

 

This hand was awkward when the opening bidder elected to bid 2C (poor option really) and I believe 2H would have created less problems. Although 6C is not a great spot it appears to make.

[aguahombre]

The 4C bid for me on this auction sets C as trump showing slam interest.

 

This hand was awkward when the opening bidder elected to bid 2C (poor option really) and I believe 2H would have created less problems. Although 6C is not a great spot it appears to make.

Is there someone good enough to pick up the club suit for only one loser?

[mike777]

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System 2/1 .By 2 ♣ rebid opener has shown 5/4 either way in minors 2♠ is FSF to Game .Your priority is to show 3 card support .So your P now knows you have 1-3-(5 4) shape and 12-17 hcp. Your cc includes minorwood and cue bids,

Q.1) What is 4♣? cue bid or miorwood?

Q.2) If responder had bid 3♠ instead of 4 ♣ is he still looking for a stopper or cue bidding for a ♥

contract?

Q.3) In either of the cases can opener assume a 5-3 or better fit in ♥?

 

 

4c sets clubs as trumps....

 

what is your next question?

[Quantumcat]

I dont know about LOT more luck, but definitely much more opportunities to practice playing 4:3 fit when NT is cold, and it is not necessarily standard (at least in my experience)......

 

The reason is to make about 20 auctions clear instead of muddy. The only disadvantage is playing in a 4-3 fit at the two-level which could easily be a better spot that 1NT anyway. Besides the 20 auctions that become clear with this agreement, it is harder for the opponents to balance (opps having a fit means we must have one - but they don't have to have a fit, so it is dangerous to balance). This is actually the main attractant to playing Acol! (the inability of opps to balance effectively after for example 1♥-2♥.) In my experience, it is intermediate+ standard, not taught to beginners to whom it needs to be drilled into that you need 8 cards for a trump suit, but standard to anyone who has taken the time to think about it or has played with someone who has.

Next time you have a five card major you have responded with, and have a bidding problem and end up having to invent a suit or something, think about whether this auction might be a little simpler for you if you knew for sure partner didn't have three cards in your suit :-)

 

Just in case you don't know how usual auctions go with this standard agreement:

1♣-1♥

2♥-2NT = invitational with four hearts. Opener can pass (holding 3 cards) or correct to 3/4♥ (holding 4) or 3NT (holding 3)

 

1♣-1♥

2♥-3NT = GF with four hearts. Opener can pass (holding 3 cards) or correct 4♥ (holding 4)

 

1♦-1♥

2♣-2♦

2♥ = 16-18 with three card support. With a very bad hand responder can pass, with better he can invite or bid game in either NT, clubs, diamonds or hearts having an excellent idea of opener's shape and his point range.

You never need to rebid a five-card suit, if you have a 5-3 fit opener will tell you later and if he doesn't, it was 5-2 or worse anyway. And if you have game values with a five-card suit you don't have to stress about how to find out about three cards with opener. If opener chooses to bid 1NT with his 4333 shape, providing opener has good judgement you are probably better off in 3NT despite the 5-3 fit anyway.

[the_dude]

While I raise with 3 whenever it seems right, I don't like the meta rule that you "must" and that your subsequent 4SF auctions do not allow you to show 12-14 with 3 card support that you didn't think was appropriate to raise. Do you really raise to 2♥ with:

 

x

xxx

AKxxx

AQxx

 

or even

 

---

xxx

AKxxx

KJxxx

 

Furthermore, don't you want to be able to show delayed with a doubleton honor in the 4SF auction? On the auction in question, I would like to be able to bid 3♥ (over 4SF) with

 

xx

Kx

AKxxx

QJxx

 

It seems to me that both of these hand types are important and if you restrict the delayed raise (in 4SF) to the 16+ 1354, you bid neither very well. How about a structure like this:

 

1♦ - 1M

2♣ - 2oM

3M = bad 3card raise or doubleton honor

3oM = 16+ with 3card support

 

Yes, 3oM chews up alot of bidding space, but if partner was interested in slam, we should be there now. If responder now bids 4 of either minor it sets trumps and clarifies his intentions (as in the OP).

 

Thoughts?

[Quantumcat]

Furthermore, don't you want to be able to show delayed with a doubleton honor in the 4SF auction?

The showing of three-card support showing 16+ refers mostly to when you freely volunteer the information, like:

1: 1♦-1♥, 2♣-2♦, 2♥

2: 1♥-1♠, 2♦-2♥, 2♠

Not fourth-suit forcing auctions.

This makes sense if you think about the fact that with a 11-14 hand, it would be normal to pass opposite simple preference. Bidding again would normally show interest in game. To have interest in game opposite a maximum of ten HCP, you would have to have 15+ HCP. So that's why you need 15+ HCP to bid 2♥. And this leads to the fact that to avoid missing a 5-3 major suit fit when you have 11-14 and your partner has 6-10, you have to raise with 3, or else you will always play in 2♦ in auction 1 or 2♥ in auction 2.

 

For example, leaving the agreement behind, consider these examples:

1♦-1♥, 2♣-2♦, 2NT

Opener should have a 15-17 count but for some reason couldn't open 1NT (maybe singleton heart, maybe he doesn't like having 2 doubleton majors in his 1NT opening)

 

1♦-1♥, 2♣-2♦, 3♦

Opener shouldn't just be making noise with an 11-count and 6-4, he should be inviting game while describing his shape.

 

Do you agree with me on these examples? If so, the freely volunteered delayed support when if you had a weaker hand you would pass showing 15+ should make sense too.

 

What I meant before was that in the auction given, since the OP said that showing 3-card support was the priority in their 4th-suit-forcing auctions, then if the 3♥ bid definitely showed 3-card support, not having the agreement I mentioned might leave you wondering as to what values you have, while you are now at a highish level and the auction feels like you should know already what values you have (game, slam or grand slam values). Whereas if you had the agreement you would know.

 

In normal-people 4th-suit-forcing auctions, the 3♥ bid is most likely a doubleton, it just happens to be the best piece of information you are able to give.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

4c sets clubs as trumps....

 

what is your next question?

What if Responder indeed has 5 cards Hts, slammish; what would he bid over Opener's 3H since he could not bid 4C as a cuebid ?

( I presume he couldn't use 4D as a cuebid either -- it would agree Diam ; that leaves only 3S as a cuebid-- which probably should mean either a cuebid OR looking for 3NT ).

 

I don't play it ( and probably I should )... but this hand seems like a poster child for XYZ 2-way checkback .

[Quantumcat]

What if Responder indeed has 5 cards Hts, slammish; what would he bid over Opener's 3H since he could not bid 4C as a cuebid ?

( I presume he couldn't use 4D as a cuebid either -- it would agree Diam ; that leaves only 3S as a cuebid-- which probably should mean either a cuebid OR looking for 3NT ).

 

I don't play it ( and probably I should )... but this hand seems like a poster child for XYZ 2-way checkback.

 

He should start off assuming that reponder does not have three hearts otherwise he would have raised.

He should not be using 4th suit forcing to look for three hearts - with three hearts opener will be strong and will show them on his own. Using 4th suit forcing just makes things confusing, opener might have one or two hearts and not another bid (he has no extra diamonds, no extra clubs, and no spade stopper).

He should use fourth-suit forcing for a particular purpose - either to bid hearts strongly (if a jump to 3♥ is not gameforcing), to set one of opener's suits as trumps strongly, or to look for 3NT. 4♣ is setting clubs, 4♦ is setting diamonds, 4♥ is to play (probably was looking for 3NT, but opener says he can't help).

[Yu18772]

The reason is to make about 20 auctions clear instead of muddy. The only disadvantage is playing in a 4-3 fit at the two-level which could easily be a better spot that 1NT anyway. Besides the 20 auctions that become clear with this agreement, it is harder for the opponents to balance (opps having a fit means we must have one - but they don't have to have a fit, so it is dangerous to balance). This is actually the main attractant to playing Acol! (the inability of opps to balance effectively after for example 1♥-2♥.) In my experience, it is intermediate+ standard, not taught to beginners to whom it needs to be drilled into that you need 8 cards for a trump suit, but standard to anyone who has taken the time to think about it or has played with someone who has.

 

Sorry, but I have seen plenty of expert+ players who dont play it. The first time I encountered this is when I came to US less than a year ago, in ACBL and upon agreement. I agree that from time to time it would make your life easier on a partscore, but I would rather make sure to get to the right game/slam than optimise 1NT or 2♥, with devoting a whole level of bidding to finding out if the support is true. With this logic you might argue it is good to support partner's major opening with a doubleton, or open 4 card major (which still works for some people, but it is far from standard)....:-)

Obviously if you have a regular partner and that works for you, great, but I think that experts generally have no problem showing 3 card support later on (unless they always want to be the captain in the bidding) or asking for it.

About balancing - it also goes for your partner, she/he also have no idea to what level to compete to, and having 5 card will end up bidding 3 level, just to show that the fit is guaranteed, or an opener with 4 card will bid again just to show 4 card.....

 

Next time you have a five card major you have responded with, and have a bidding problem and end up having to invent a suit or something, think about whether this auction might be a little simpler for you if you knew for sure partner didn't have three cards in your suit :-)

 

I never "end up having to invert", or rebid 5 card suit. My partner is intelligent enough to know that her bidding limits my and to what extent.

 

Just in case you don't know how usual auctions go with this standard agreement:

1♣-1♥

2♥-2NT = invitational with four hearts. Opener can pass (holding 3 cards) or correct to 3/4♥ (holding 4) or 3NT (holding 3)

 

1♣-1♥

2♥-3NT = GF with four hearts. Opener can pass (holding 3 cards) or correct 4♥ (holding 4)

 

I do know - just find it wasteful. For me long and short trial bids a much more useful conventions to get to right difficult games and avoid wrong slams.

Having another level of bidding - does wonders for the invitational + hands without the need to jump anywhere.....http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

[TWO4BRIDGE]

--He should start off assuming that reponder does not have three hearts otherwise he would have raised.

 

--He should not be using 4th suit forcing to look for three hearts - with three hearts opener will be strong and will show them on his own.

 

--Using 4th suit forcing just makes things confusing, opener might have one or two hearts and not another bid (he has no extra diamonds, no extra clubs, and no spade stopper).

 

--He should use fourth-suit forcing for a particular purpose:

a ) either to bid hearts strongly (if a jump to 3

♥

is not gameforcing),

b )

to set one of opener's suits as trumps strongly

, or

c ) to look for 3NT.

 

-- ( after 3H by opener ) 4♣ is setting clubs, 4♦ is setting diamonds, 4♥ is to play (probably was looking for 3NT, but opener says he can't help).

 

I think I like your treatment here.

Immediately raise responder's Major w/3 when MINIMUM, but do not with "extras" ( bid 2C instead ) .

( And Responder can still get out with a 2NT rebid ) .

 

After 2C and a 4th Suit GF bid , if Opener THEN bids 3H, it will show 3 cards but this time w/"extras" .

 

This way it becomes clear if next Responder bids one of Opener's suits, it shows SUPPORT ( strongly ) and THAT was the reason fo the 4th suit GF -- and CANCELS interest in Responder's Major ( Hts here ) .

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Thank you guys for your replies.

 

I have suggested to my P the following scheme

1♦-1♥/♠-2♣-FSF

2NT= stopper in FS -3C by responder =looking for 3 card support for his Major Now if opener shows 3 card support he bids it showing a (1-3)-(5-4) shape with singleton Ace.

Do you think this scheme will work?

 

It may work for you, but may LOSE Responder's real intent of the 4th suit GF as noted by quantumcat ! !

Namely, Responder may want to rebid Clubs to show strong interest in Opener's 1st bid suit ( and cancel interest in the major ) .