5 Level belongs to...

[rhm]

I mean he jumped to 4♠ when he could've doubled with powerful hand and something like 6-3-1-3.

 

Most experts play over a preempt that double followed by a 4♠ bid shows a more flexible hand (two places to play etc.) and not a hand stronger than a jump to 4♠.

Both show strong hands

 

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

Now if you want to play a system which require you to remember 100's of situations (would it be forcing if 5♦ bidder isn't passed hand ? would it be forcing if they play 3[diamonds} as "constructive" ?, would it be forcing if both side were nonvul ?)

That appears to be three situations, and they don't require specific agreement - they should all be covered by general rules. In fact, I don't even think we need general rules for these - If we don't have any agreements about these, the answers are no, no, and yes.

 

and force you to double them just because you have this 13count and partner have nothing, all in exchange for maybe slightly more accurate bidding, which also makes opponents decisions easier, then good luck to you :-)

 

Also what exactly partner would double with after your "encouraging" pass ? I mean he jumped to 4♠ when he could've doubled with powerful hand and something like 6-3-1-3. I wonder what kind of hands which were suitable for 4♠ now want to defend after your fp. Won't be easy to make those decisions without very detailed partnership understanding.

Discussing high-level competitive sequences is definitely a good idea, and a better use of a partnership's time than adding twiddly bits to the 1NT structure. However, we can't discuss everything, and if we haven't discussed this sequence we can still use judgement and experience.

 

I expect he'd double 5♦ on most hands that have a doubleton diamond, and I expect he'd bid 5♠ on most hands that are 7-1 in the pointed suits. If, as you say, he's unlikely to be 6313, that's a good thing - it reduces the number of hands where he'll be unsure what to do after my forcing pass.

[tolvyrj]

I can think many hands where both 4♠ and 5♦ makes :lol: . But back into the real world, IMO what ever i do means something, so i must do the least wrong thing here.

I think pass is the strongest bid here, double advocates weak hand with no desire to go further in ♠ and 5♠ denotes weak hand with some support, so thats what im going to bid.

Ok 6♦ or 6♠ r stronger than pass. What will happend next...gee lets hope the guy in the other table is in same place as im :lol: .

[jogs]

PASS.

 

Suspect both 5D and 5S goes down. No singleton is bad for our offense. Two doubletons in the side suits increases the chances of pard also having at least two in each minor. Looks like an unlucky hand for both sides.

[655321]

5♠.

 

Perhaps 12 tricks are cold - 5 hearts and 7 black suit tricks with only one loser in the minors - even so bidding 5♥ seems like way too much so I just bid the obvious and boring 5♠.

[nige1]

IMO 5♠ = 10, _P = 8, 5♥ = 6, , _X = 4

IMO it 's a guess. If you pass, then you should pass again when partner doubles because pass and pull shows a stronger hand (as I play it). (5♥ didn't occur to me until I read 655321's post).

[Hanoi5]

I choose 5♠. I understand the logic behind passing being forcing (after reading Justin's post) but I don't want to double (or leave it double) so I just bid what i think we make.

[Free]

I don't understand why people think this is a forcing pass situation. I'll just pass.

[peachy]

We are vulnerable against not-vul and bid game, so it is our hand; by the metarules Pass by this hand should then be forcing, but I would not be sure and would not be sure partner would be sure. "If" it is clear, Pass is forcing, then I must bid 5S now rather than later.

[helene_t]

I agree it's clear but will it really be that difficult a problem? Will you be thinking of accepting a slam try?

If p makes a slam try over my 5♠ I will accept :)

[aguahombre]

If p makes a slam try over my 5♠ I will accept :)

 

I smiled.

[gwnn]

Well this must be very funny but

 

3D-4S-5D-5S

6D*-p

*not all opps are completely sane

is indeed a slam try.

[han]

The gwnn strikes back.

[zasanya]

How can this not be a forcing pass situation? RHO is a passed hand, LHO has preempted white/red in third seat, and partner has jumped to game showing a strong hand. The ability to defend 5D undoubled in this scenario does not make logical sense. Yes I'm sure you can come up with some layouts where they are cold and we are down 500, but it is so unlikely I wouldn't even worry about it (and even then, we haven't lost much). On the other side having the ability to make a more informed decision about whether or not to bid 5S over 5D is really useful.

While I think I can can work out what sort of hand should double (Short ♠ with a ♦honor?) I cant figure out what sort of hand should bid 5 spades.( no A K; 3+ spades with short ♣ or ♥? )

Could you help?

[straube]

For what it's worth, Robson/Segal in their book Partnership Bidding would recommend (pretty sure anyway) this to be a forcing pass situation because our side at unfavorable vul jumped to game.

[pooltuna]

Even Nat'l Champions are tempted to take insurance at these colors plus if they don't you might actually make it

[mtvesuvius]

I bid 5♠ at the table, which caught a raise from partner holding AKQJTx Qxx - AKxx, and made 6 when we did not suffer a heart ruff.

[aguahombre]

Ok, so now that we know North's hand, give South the heart ace instead of the heart jack. Help me understand how FP would work, what North would reopen with after a pass, and how pass and pull (pull what?) would come into play.

 

These things always confuse me.

[kayin801]

Ok, so now give South the heart ace instead of the heart jack. Help me understand how FP would work, what North would reopen after a pass, and how pass and pull (pull what?) would come into play.

 

These things always confuse me.

 

Pass then 5♠ after partner Xs shows a stronger hand then 5♠ immediately. If partner bid 5♠ instead of X then we'd probably bid 6♥ as a GS try without a minor suit control, though the prisoner might say that 5♥ right away and 6♥ later shows this, but maybe with xxxx, Axxxx, xxx, x we'd do 5♥ instead and your described hand is P... -> 6♥.

 

(made edit to last paragraph)

[aguahombre]

The focus is on the heart strength and the club length. AK(any) and club dub=grand; Axxxx or kxxxx in hearts is probably down in slam; KJXXX is good if no heart ruff, but also needs club dub or 3-2 hearts.

[aibZ]

I think pass is forcing here. 4♠ isn't just some hand that's shooting out a game hoping for a random 8-count from pard to bring it home. A jump over a preempt shows a REAL HAND - and should turn on FP for our side.

[bluecalm]

I think pass is forcing here. 4♠ isn't just some hand that's shooting out a game hoping for a random 8-count from pard to bring it home. A jump over a preempt shows a REAL HAND - and should turn on FP for our side.

 

LOL.

 

Yeah, and it should show REAL 8 card suit with AT LEAST 3 aces AND two KINGS !! IT's not just some hand hoping for a random 8 count from pard blablabla.

And what if you have KQJTxxx AQJx x x ? You eat the cards ?

[mtvesuvius]

I think Z's point is that is isn't pre-emptive or weak-ish in nature.

 

I would consider KQJTxxx AQJx x x a minimum 4♠ bid, although just 3♠ is probably enough with that.

[gnasher]

Ok, so now that we know North's hand, give South the heart ace instead of the heart jack. Help me understand how FP would work, what North would reopen with after a pass, and how pass and pull (pull what?) would come into play.

 

These things always confuse me.

 

The theory is that:

- South passes, initially saying "I don't know whether to bid on or to defend."

- South expects that North will make a penalty double. South plans to remove the double, showing a slam try.

- If North unexpectedly bids instead of making a penalty double, South bids slam. The problem with this is that bidding slam may not be right.

 

You can improve that, in theory at least, by inverting pass and double. Then:

- South passes, initially saying "I have a penalty double".

- South expects that North will double, saying "I would have passed your penalty double". South plans to remove the double, showing a slam try.

- If North unexpectedly bids instead of making a penalty double, he is saying "I would have pulled your penalty double." Now South can bid slam with more confidence.

Edited March 31, 2011 by gnasher

[aibZ]

I think Z's point is that is isn't pre-emptive or weak-ish in nature.

 

I would consider KQJTxxx AQJx x x a minimum 4♠ bid, although just 3♠ is probably enough with that.

 

This is actually a reasonably good example of a double-and-bid hand over a preempt. It shows the same strength as a 4S bid, just more than one possible strain in which to play.