Is a 2C Response to 1D Game Force?

[Yzerman]

A lot of discussion has come up recently regarding this auction.  I believe the majority of the world does not play this game forcing, but to my surprise some VERY good players have cited that they play this.

 

My preference is that this auction is NOT game forcing but promises a second bid.  The main reason in which this should not be forcing to game is that (a) you have no 1NT forcing option available after 1D openers, and (;) OBVIOUS reasons, you have club suit and nothing in the majors (or little in the majors).

 

Here is a real hand from a regional a few years ago in which our team lost a KO event;

 

Your hand:

 

Ax

xx

Qx

K10xxxxx

 

Our teammate, both VERY established players (not that this is measure of skill, they both have > 5000 MP, hence they have much experience), decided that this hand was not worthy of a 2C response (the club suit was lacking in intermediates) and bid 1NT (citing that 2C is "game force unless suit rebid" BUT did not like the suit quality for 2C-3C).  Auction proceeded 1D-1N-3N (you can also argue 2N instead of 3N);

 

Other hand;

 

Kxx

Axx

AKJx

Axx

 

Needless to say, 3N is not a very effective contract at imps.  But this hand would be an absolute nightmare if you play 2C as game forcing.

 

How about some arguments (a) for and (:) against this.

[inquiry]

It is not just some VERY GOOD players that play 1D-2C as game force. Some of us average players do too... since I play 1d-2c as GAME FORCE,

 

and

 

I play 1D-3C as longish clubs and 9-bad 12 hcp, invintataional. This is a simple-minded approach that works for me.

 

So on the hand you gave, the bidding would have been,

 

1D-3C-?

 

This choice wasn't based upon deep thinking about the theory. It just smoothed out auctions I was having with casual partnerships. What is the best theoretical approach, I don't know. I have gotten to a number of not so great 3C contracts and when partner pulls 3C, you often end up in game on some not so perfect misfits, but when you bid 2C you know you will not get dropped short of game. All in all it seems to be a net plus for me.

[Yzerman]

Okay, you open another can of worms.  Given the overcall strategy of a 2/1 system, for the auction 1D-3C what BEST fits into the general 2/1 approach?

 

I have tried alot of different conventions/treatments, and below I have listed in what order my preference is (using frequency, overall utility, and how well complement 2/1 sytsem);

 

a) Criss-Cross

;) Fit Jump

c)  Preempt

d) Invite

f)  Strong

 

What do you think?  And are there others I am leaving out?

 

* Why I like Criss-Cross the most?

 

Simple answer, I LOVE the ability to bid 3d (preempt), 2d(unconditional GF), and 3c (diamond limit).  This structure fits best in a 2/1 weak NT system although still very effective with 2/1 strong NT.  The 3c limit is very frequent, fits nicely, and the overall utility is described below;

 

When partner opens 1D playing weak NT that hand can ONLY be one of three general hands;

 

a) Weak hand with diamonds

:) Strong hand with diamonds

c) Strong NT

 

In all cases 3c immediately puts the opener into the drivers seat and is preemptive in nature when opener has hand (a).

[bglover]

Many play that 1d-2c is 100% force and that 1d-3c shows specifically 6+ suit and 11ish values...

 

Now, if opener rebids diamonds then responder passes, and if opener bids 3n pass also available. Other bids can be cues in looksing for nt or slam... This treatment pretty common.

[keylime]

I will admit something to the masses here: 1D-2C for me isn't G/F. It's just a one round force. Why? Well here's some thoughts:

 

1. Partner didn't bid a major willingly. Unless partner's strong in connotation and desiring slam with a major rebid, this lack of control pinpoints defense's opening lead.

 

2. Sometimes you can't play 3NT, and you need a place to run into a minor.

 

3. I don't usually play 2/1 per the norm, so this when it happens causes some uncomfortable moments for my partner. Does showing a major by opener/responder promise extras, or is it shape showing? That's a very relevant question.

[Rado]

Many bridge authors quote 1D-2C as the "black ship" of their system (Lawrance, Bergen, ...)

I personaly prefer:

- 1D-2C = FG unless suit rebid (in which case showing 6 cards abt 10-11P),

- 1D-3C=good 6 cards 7-9 points

[pricci]

I like sound bids...then:

1D/1NT sounds as a balanced hand

1D/2C sounds strong club based hand (also two suite) game forcing

1D/3C sounds monocolor 7/10(bad 11) points

 

ciao

[luis]

1d-2c Sequences

 

I do play 1d-2c as GF, you should have this sequence discussed with your pd. I play after 1d-2c

 

2d = 5+ diammonds and does not deny a 4 card major. So all hands with 5+ diammonds rebid 2d after 2c.

2h/2s = 4 card suits with 4 or 3 diammonds.

2N = Exactly 3343

3c = 3244 or 2344

[JRG]

I play it both ways. In my long established partnership we play it as not game-forcing. In my recently established partnership we play it as game-forcing.

 

I also play Criss-Cross exactly the way Yzerman does (in the partnership that does plays 1D-2C as not GF).

 

I have very mixed feelings about it.

 

By the way, another question: Does anyone play 2/1 GF AND 4-card majors?

[the hog]

"By the way, another question: Does anyone play 2/1 GF AND 4-card majors? " I guess this is prompted by what a lot of the English currently play

 

Very interesting question John. We experimented with this early last year. We played a system based on "The Science", which originated at Cambridge Uni, I think by Tom Townsend. The Hackett twins played something similar.

 

Basically it is highly aggressive 4CM, possibly canape if in the 11(10) - 13 range.

If 14+ you bid normally.

1NT = 14-16, including all 5332 (and maybe a 6 card m)

2D/H/S were all undisciplined weak 2s

 

We found we had to do a lot of work over the 1M openings to differentiate between 3 & 4 card raises. We stole the following structure from the Hacketts.

 

1M 2C = either C GF OR a 3 card raise 8-11. On most hands opener rebid 2D and now correction to 2M showed the raise, all else was the usual GF.

 

Results? It was highly aggressive, but required a LOT of partnership discussion. It was a lot of fun.

 

My pd at the time had also played a Magic Diamond variant based on rubens advances like responses to opening bids.

 

Interstingly enough, John, Tom Townsend developed an excellent big C system called "THe Way Forward", based on the aggressive ideas of "The Science". It is extremely well designed and thought out.

 

Cheers

Ron

[junyi_zhu]

Yes. I play 2/1 100% gameforcing, 4 card major opening,

14-16 1NT opening, 1NT semiforcing with a partner.

Our opening style is reasonally sound, we open most 12 HCP balanced

hands unless the hands contain some big flaws.

We also play benjamin strong two opening. That solves the 3NT rebidding problem.

So 1x-1y-3NT shows 19 HCP, balanced. with a solid suit and about 8 tricks, we open bejamin 2C. So now 1x-1y-2NT just shows 17-18 HCP.

This structure also requires sound response. We respond partner's opening bids with at least 6 HCP or good 5 HCP. We also play jacoby 2NT

over 1M. Our systemic flaw is that with 3 card support, singleton somewhere, invitational hands, we might play 1NT here. I don't really think it is a big draw back. If the hand is very suit oriented, we still can

try limit raise instead of 1NT semiforcing. Anyway, partner needs to know how to play 4-3 fit playing this system, that's also a lot of fun!