Kickback

[MrAce]

The responses to this thread have far exceeded my expectations, it has really been of interest. As to the do they or don't they European issue, I am sure it can be settled over drinks. I'll even buy the first round.

 

Thanks for all of the input,

Ken

 

You are always such a nice guy Ken and come up with something that calms down people :) Thanks for the drink offer, i promise i will buy the second drinks, when/if we meet at a national or something B-) Sorry if hijacked the topic :(

[kenberg]

So, is kickback on your card now?

 

I play weekly with the partner who wants kickback. Last Thursday there was not time to discuss this, but probably I will agree on something like the following basis: We have to agree on what constitutes minor suit agreement. For example: 1D-1S-3D-4H. One could, maybe should, say that while 3D did not set diamonds as trump, a bid of 3H would (so I think) be forcing and so 4H is an acceptance of diamonds as trump and is kickback. Otoh, I would think 1D-1H-3D-4H means that I want to play 4H. If there is time to go over such things and we find we agree, then I am up for it.

 

My general view of conventions is this: Without the convention your auction may be less scientific and you may land in a less than optimal contract. But you may land on your feet. Maybe you are in 5D and, seeing the dummy, you wish you were in 6D, but trumps break badly or there is an opening lead ruff or some such and 5D is just fine. Or maybe you are in a sketchy 6D that comes through because everything is lying right. But if you screw up a convention and land in some number of diamonds when you are supposed to be in hearts, you are done for.

 

So if I can be reasonably confident we have looked in the various corners for mice, it will be on the card.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I happened to find this tidbit in my Minorwood/Kickback files:

 

From PriorKnowledge ( a sometimes poster here ) for GF auctions:

 

" You can play both Kickback and Minorwood.

If minor suit fit has been agreed below 4m, then 4m is RKC ( Minorwood ).

But if 4m is needed to announce the fit, then the next bid up is RKC ( Kickback ). "

 

So, in your original example:

 

1♦ Pass 1♥ 1♠

2♣ Pass 2♠! Pass

3♦ Pass 4♦ Pass

??

4♥ = Kickback

 

but if the auction went as follows:

 

1♦ Pass 1♥ 1♠

2♣ Pass 2♠! Pass

3♣ Pass 3♦ Pass

??

4♦ = Minorwood

[jillybean]

I play weekly with the partner who wants kickback. Last Thursday there was not time to discuss this, but probably I will agree on something like the following basis: We have to agree on what constitutes minor suit agreement. For example: 1D-1S-3D-4H. One could, maybe should, say that while 3D did not set diamonds as trump, a bid of 3H would (so I think) be forcing and so 4H is an acceptance of diamonds as trump and is kickback. Otoh, I would think 1D-1H-3D-4H means that I want to play 4H. If there is time to go over such things and we find we agree, then I am up for it.

 

 

The 1D-1H-3D-4H auction is interesting. I play strong jump shifts so for us, a hand that made a 1H bid followed by 4H should I think, be kickback. A hand willing to play in 4H with no support from partner would have started with 2H. Definately something to go over with my partner.

 

TWO4BRIDGE , I used to play both minorwood and kickback and found it very confusing.

We have dropped minorwood and play only kickback.

[xxhong]

Kickback is definitely a better treatment than RKCB for minors and for hearts. It is especially a good convention when you can settle your trump suit at 3 level or lower. Problems of misunderstandings usually occur when you can't find your trump fit at 3 level. In those cases, it is probably wiser to play 4NT as Roman Blackwood (Not RKCB). Those who don't play kickback may have severe problems in minor suit grand slams and some problems in minor suit small slams IMO.

 

In your sequence, if you can play 3D as setting up D and GF, then your life can be much easier IMO. 2S can start invitational sequences.

 

OK, I'm slow to change. I still drive a stick shift. But even glaciers melt (a little faster these days). A partner wants to play kickback. I give you an auction.

 

 

1♦ Pass 1♥ 1♠

2♣ Pass 2♠ Pass

3♦ Pass 4♦ Pass

 

 

OK, here we are with diamonds as presumed trump. With this current partner, we are not playing kickback Suppose we were. Which is now Kickback, 4♥ or 4♠? Opener presumably does not have three hearts but might have, say, Kx and wish to show it, true? But partner might also have a spade control and wish to show it, true? So how does it go? Once there has been a raise, even a somewhat mild raise as here, then that's trump and the next suit up is kickback, no exceptions? Or are there exceptions?

 

At the table, opener bid 4♠, a control, not Kickback, I bid 6♦, the opponents took the first spade trick and partner the next twelve tricks.

 

I know kickback has its pluses, and I know every convention requires that you give up something. But some conventions also have ambiguity problems unless there are some firm agreements. So, for starters, is it 4♥ or 4♠ that is kickback here?

[zenko]

To quote the Mickey Rourke's advice to William Hurt in Body Heat: " I got a serious question for you: What the f... are you doing? This is not s... for you to be messin' with. Are you ready to hear something? Any time you try a decent crime (or play Kickback), you got fifty ways you're gonna f... up. If you think of twenty-five of them, then you're a genius... and you ain't no genius."

 

BTW, yes, I am driving stick shift too