Opening with a balanced five-card major

[EricK]

"this is the "other" way to play 5332 hands... the 12, 13 point hands open 1M and rebid cheapest/best minor over a forcing nt... another problem is the 12, 13 1H bid when partner responds 1S... 1nt now promises 14-16 (playing mini)

 

i've about come to the conclusion that 1nt should be semi-forcing when playing a mini nt, but ONLY if one has opened 1M with a 5332 hand in the nt range... then partner won't go into seizures when 1nt is passed"

 

We play 1M-1NT as natural, 2/1 as F1.

 

The 1H rebid problem is why we open 1NT with 5H through 12(13). With a decent 13, we call it 14 when it comes to the rebid.

 

I played a semi-forcing NT for a while - it had advantages, but you can miss games once in a while.

 

Peter

With a semi forcing 1NT you can also miss the best part score when responder has a weak hand with a long suit.

 

Eric

[Fluffy]

Not onlyopen 1M saves the fit when partner has 5-, but also lets him compete when he is 2-4 after passing. If you open 1NT you will have to play a poor contract of decide to compete blindly to 2M.

[Gerben47]

I open 1NT with 5♥ only not with 5♠ as with 5♥ there is a bigger rebid problem (after 1♥ - 1♠!) and a bigger gain when they cannot overcall 1♠.

Kaplan inversion solves the rebid problem a bit but the other point stays.

 

Reading through the posts there are several things.

 

* The reason that we're discussing this is that it probably won't matter much. Some world class players say never open with 5M, some say always, some more say sometimes.

 

* Someone stated 16 - 18 as a "normal" range for 1NT. Since it's in some beginners system for unknown reasons (it's terrible!) does not mean it is at all normal.

 

ADVANTAGE of 1NT: More accurate hand description

DISADVANTAGE of 1NT: Might miss a major suit fit if partner is too weak to act

 

So maybe : doesn't matter at teams, no 5-card majors in MP?

 

Gerben

[luke warm]

I played a semi-forcing NT for a while - it had advantages, but you can miss games once in a while.

 

Peter

right.. if i played it, it'd only be for 5=3=3=2 hands 11, 12 hcp that i opened 1S... but i think it's better to open that 1nt and keep the forcing 1nt response

 

and eric's point about responder with long suit is correct also, which is another reason for me to just open 1nt

[Free]

Not onlyopen 1M saves the fit when partner has 5-, but also lets him compete when he is 2-4 after passing. If you open 1NT you will have to play a poor contract of decide to compete blindly to 2M.

What happens to you with a 5-3-3-2 (opener) when partner has a 2-5-4-2? You'll open 1♠ and probably end up in 2♦, missing your 3-5 fit in ♥. So do you really never miss a 5-3 fit by opening 1♠?? :blink:

 

By opening 1♥ you won't have a similar problem, since responder can show his ♠ suit, but you'll always have to support with your 3 card...

[Fluffy]

Most of my partners will bid 2♠ at MP with that and we will finnish in 2NT. at IMPS 2♦ is a good contract, better than 1NT.

 

I´ll support, but won´t ever give a 3 card support directly, I will do it at the third round after I bid my minor:

 

1♥-1♠-2♣-2♥-2♠.

 

To Gerben47:

 

In spain 16-18 is the Standard NT range (probably because we are all novices).

 

If the advantage of opening 1NT with 5c major is that it is more accurate.... you could open as well 1NT with 4225, 2336... etc, the problem is, the more hands you put into 1NT the LESS accurate it becomes. I love the accuracy of opening 1NT and ruling out a 5c major form my partner, it helps so much my very artificial continuations.

 

if Kaplan inversion is the inversión of 1♠/1NT after 1♥.. it solves nothing:

 

1♥-1♠**, now 1NT is 12-14, still have to bid a minor with 15-17.

[tysen2k]

Tysen 2000  B) ,

 

I think there's a flaw in your logic somewhere...

 

- You talk about using strong NT for a part as preemptive, so you allow 5 card Majors to increase the frequency.

- With weak NT (more preemptive) you still allow 5 card Majors, but you seem not to be so sure  B) 

- When playing mini (pure preemptive method imo) then you wouldn't allow them for some reason (not specified)

 

It seems to me like the more preemptive you go, the less frequency you want  ;) which is imo the reversed psychology of preempting.  Or do you only consider the constructive part of the NT?

Not really. The weak NT occurs much more frequently than the strong. A strong NT without 5cM occurs too rarely to be of much use. It becomes an underutilized bid and puts more burden on the rest of your system. And since you're stronger the danger of missing a 2M partscore is much less.

 

The weak NT is much more frequent with or without the 5cM. Adding 5cM to the weak NT increases the preemptiveness but hurts constructive bidding. Around 12-14, the bonus to preemptiveness still outweighs the constructive burden, so it's worth including 5cM. Go much weaker than that and the loss of constructive bidding hurts more than the bonus of added preemption. The weaker opener gets, the less likely responder is to have an invitational hand that is able to use weapons like Puppet Stayman. The inibility to play in 2M hurts more in MP than IMP's, but it still hurts in both.

 

Tysen

[whereagles]

A strong NT without 5cM occurs too rarely to be of much use.

Too rarely? I'm willing to bet at least 50% of all bridge players play a 15-17 1NT without 5-card majors and I don't hear them complaining of not opening 1NT often enough.

 

And I don't think it's too much of a burden to bid 15-17 balanced hands with 5-card major as...

 

1M 1NT

2m 2M

2NT

 

2m = 3-card suit. Responder will only pass this with 2M4m. With 2M3m or 1M3m he bids 2M.

2NT = showing 15-17. Usually balanced, though some unbalanced hands bid 2NT as well.

 

It's probably not as precise as opening 1NT and using puppet stayman or Keri, but it sure is playable and has the advantage of not missing 53 or 54 major suit fits...

[tysen2k]

A strong NT without 5cM occurs too rarely to be of much use.

Too rarely? I'm willing to bet at least 50% of all bridge players play a 15-17 1NT without 5-card majors and I don't hear them complaining of not opening 1NT often enough.

Just because most people do it doesn't mean it's best from a bidding theory point of view. Light openings are also quite valuable, but I know a lot of people who won't open a 12 point hand.

 

And I don't think it's too much of a burden to bid 15-17 balanced hands with 5-card major as...

 

1M 1NT

2m 2M

2NT

 

2m = 3-card suit. Responder will only pass this with 2M4m. With 2M3m or 1M3m he bids 2M.

2NT = showing 15-17. Usually balanced, though some unbalanced hands bid 2NT as well.

 

Yuck! You want to bid 2N on 15-17 when partner very likely only has 6-7? And you might not even be balanced so partner can't really evaluate his shape? I think you made my point for me; not opening these hands with 1N puts more burden on you major openings.

 

Tysen

[pbleighton]

"The weak NT is much more frequent with or without the 5cM. Adding 5cM to the weak NT increases the preemptiveness but hurts constructive bidding. Around 12-14, the bonus to preemptiveness still outweighs the constructive burden, so it's worth including 5cM. Go much weaker than that and the loss of constructive bidding hurts more than the bonus of added preemption. The weaker opener gets, the less likely responder is to have an invitational hand that is able to use weapons like Puppet Stayman. The inibility to play in 2M hurts more in MP than IMP's, but it still hurts in both."

 

Your technical point is valid, but...

 

1) This assumes that the field were opening the 10/11 5M332s 1M - but they are passing, at least in my neck of the woods. The missed fits are mostly missed by the field

2) You are opening hands you would otherwise pass, and/or cleaning up your 1M openers

3) Most importantly, in my experience, a mini NT is considerably more difficult for the opps to handle than 1M. It forces even good players to guess wrong a lot.

 

Peter

[Fluffy]

Yuck! You want to bid 2N on 15-17 when partner very likely only has 6-7? And you might not even be balanced so partner can't really evaluate his shape? I think you made my point for me; not opening these hands with 1N puts more burden on you major openings.

 

Tysen

What? 6-7? and it is wrong?.

 

Lets start: partner is 6-10 (4-10 on 2/1), when he has 6-7 we have 21-24... I don´t see any problem about playing 2NT.

 

What about when he has 8? you could argue he cannot invite liek he woudl with 2NT if 1NT was opened, but instead he knows about a 5 card major and a 3+ minor suit, he has better info evaluating his shape, ,kinda better than quantitative biddings.

 

He has 9-10? there is no difference: same contract on both. (you can bid 3♥ to get the 5-3 ♥ fit still).

[Free]

I wonder if opening 1NT without a 5 card Major works with light openings. Because if your 2m rebid only shows a 3 card, then how can you show the difference between a very light opener with some distribution and a solid 15-17 5332?

 

So far it's been hard vs unsoft with arguments, nobody seems to be able to convince anyone else...

[the hog]

And I don't think it's too much of a burden to bid 15-17 balanced hands with 5-card major as...

 

1M 1NT

2m 2M

2NT

 

The problem occurs when responder would have passed out a 1N opening. I am playing 1N, you are playing 2N.

[luke warm]

"The weak NT is much more frequent with or without the 5cM. Adding 5cM to the weak NT increases the preemptiveness but hurts constructive bidding. Around 12-14, the bonus to preemptiveness still outweighs the constructive burden, so it's worth including 5cM. Go much weaker than that and the loss of constructive bidding hurts more than the bonus of added preemption. The weaker opener gets, the less likely responder is to have an invitational hand that is able to use weapons like Puppet Stayman. The inibility to play in 2M hurts more in MP than IMP's, but it still hurts in both."

 

Your technical point is valid, but...

 

1) This assumes that the field were opening the 10/11 5M332s 1M - but they are passing, at least in my neck of the woods. The missed fits are mostly missed by the field

2) You are opening hands you would otherwise pass, and/or cleaning up your 1M openers

3) Most importantly, in my experience, a mini NT is considerably more difficult for the opps to handle than 1M. It forces even good players to guess wrong a lot.

 

Peter

i have to say i agree, but my prejudice in this area is well known

[Fluffy]

I wonder if opening 1NT without a 5 card Major works with light openings. Because if your 2m rebid only shows a 3 card, then how can you show the difference between a very light opener with some distribution and a solid 15-17 5332?

It shows 4 card actually, it gets raised with 4, passed with 4 normally, it shows 4 at least.

 

1♥-1♠

2♣-2♦

3♣

 

is a 5-5.

 

 

To Ron...

 

Yeah Exactly, you are playing 1NT while w play 2.. or you are playing 1NT while we play 2/3/4♠, on the first on e it probably makes no difference, and on the second you don´t knwo wich is best ;), but I beleive partner having 3+♠ is more likelly than less.

[whereagles]

And I don't think it's too much of a burden to bid 15-17 balanced hands with 5-card major as...

 

1M 1NT

2m 2M

2NT

 

The problem occurs when responder would have passed out a 1N opening. I am playing 1N, you are playing 2N.

Yes, that's precisely the problem of not opening 1NT. The good thing is not missing major suit fits. I actually prefer to open 1NT, mind you :)

 

Yuck! You want to bid 2N on 15-17 when partner very likely only has 6-7? And you might not even be balanced so partner can't really evaluate his shape? I think you made my point for me; not opening these hands with 1N puts more burden on you major openings.

What's the problem? (15+6)---(17+7) = 21---24. Most of the time you'll have 22+ points, which is usually enough for 2NT. Plus there's a good chance at a residual 5-2 spade fit that can generate tricks. It's not that I like this sort of bidding, but I can imagine some players prefer this to missing major suit fits. Besides, what if opener is unbalanced and 16-17? You'll bid 2NT anyway, in a situation that may be even more misfitted, so what's the big deal?

 

There's a case for both styles. Only time can tell which is better. At present, any claims of superiority for a given method are premature and should be taken with a grain of salt. Lots of them, actually, LOL ;)

[EricK]

It is not enough to look at the gains and losses when you open 1NT with a 5cM, you must also look at the gains (definitely these exist!) and losses (are there any?) when you open 1M without a balanced hand.

 

Eric

[mikestar]

There are two other factors in this discussion, one is a system design issue, and the other is an empirical question.

 

In a 2/1 framework I believe that the one bids are overworked and opennig 5M-3--3-2 hands in NT when able helps unburben them a bit. In Precision, the limited suit openings are not nearly so burdened and 1M can take the strain better than a 2/1 1M opener. I particularly prefer to open the major in any kind of Real Diamond Precision, as I normally use a 4-point NT range for these. The absence of the possibility of a 5 card major partially compensates for the wider range.

 

In any system, the bid you use for these hands will become more frequent and less accurate, the bid you don't use will become less frequent and more accurate. Which tradeoff is better depends on the rest of the system.

 

The empirical question is: How often does a 5-2 major fit produce a better result than 1NT with the sort of hand that goes 1S-1N-2C-2S (for example) vs 1N-P with responder having a doubleton spade? I've heard KS advocates claim that the 5-2 plays better at least 70% of the time. If this is true, it tilts the argument a bit towards opening the major--if we do well in the 5-2 fit, why not make the bid that ensures we won't miss the 5-3 fit?

[pbleighton]

"The empirical question is: How often does a 5-2 major fit produce a better result than 1NT with the sort of hand that goes 1S-1N-2C-2S (for example) vs 1N-P with responder having a doubleton spade?"

 

I've read that sims showed 50-50 results between 1NT and 2M.

 

Your point on Precision with 12-15 is good.

 

What would you do with 5cM if you were oplaying a strong club with a 3 point NT range?

 

Peter

[Gerben47]

To Fluffy: The Spanish juniors I played against did not play 16 - 18 NT, they played 15 - 17. If you decide to play 15 - 17 instead of 16 - 18 you are way ahead of the field.

 

Why?

The 1NT rebid shows 12 - 15 HCP. What do you do with 10 opposite this? Playing 15 - 17 you pass. If you pass as well you will miss good 3NT with 15+10 and if you bid you can go down in 2NT. Great...

 

The 1NT opening bid as 16 - 18 is too infrequent:

 

15 HCP: 4.4%

16 HCP: 3.3%

17 HCP: 2.4%

18 HCP: 1.6%

 

For every 10 NT openings 15 - 17 you have only 7 NT openings with 16 - 18. This means you don't get enough out of your sophisticated Stayman and Transfers or Keri or whatever.

 

The only reason 16 - 18 might work is to open all 19+ NT hands on the 2-level to free the 2NT rebid for something else, but I guess that is not done in the "standard" Spanish.

[Gerben47]

Mikestar: That's the strength of Weak Opening Systems. In the 8 - 12 HCP range you can have very frequent AND accurate opening bids. There are more hands in the 8 - 11HCP range (36.6%) than in the 12 - 37 HCP range (34.4%)!

[mikestar]

Your point on Precision with 12-15 is good.

 

What would you do with 5cM if you were oplaying a strong club with a 3 point NT range?

With a three point range, I feel more comfortable opening 1NT with 5M-3-3-2, but would not argue with a partner who had the opposite preference, while playing 2/1 I would try to persude a partenr with an opposite view to change his mind.

[mikestar]

Mikestar: That's the strength of Weak Opening Systems. In the 8 - 12 HCP range you can have very frequent AND accurate opening bids. There are more hands in the 8 - 11HCP range (36.6%) than in the 12 - 37 HCP range (34.4%)!

The weakness of WOS is those not exactly rare 12-37 hands. Ignoring regualtory issues, a forcing pass opening is much more subject to disruption by intervention than a Precision 1C. Opponents will not tend to be so destructive, but they will have many hands worth constructive intervention.

 

In an auction such as P-(1S)-P-(3S) I'm much more comfortable if my initial pass was a average 9 count than an average 15 count. In the former case I'm not missing anything and can pass comfortably, in the latter case I am really risking missing something if I pass again, but I'm taking my life in my hands to bid--we have a fit, but can we find it?

 

By the way, I am a fairly strong advocate of a conservative Precision approach, requiring 17 HCP for 1C and being fairly strict about it, vs the usual 16 HCP requirement applied fairly loosely that is often encountered. The difference is about a point and a half extra defense and I find it helps in coping with intervention.

[Fluffy]

Hey Gerben!

 

I never mant that 16-18 is a good range, just to note it actually exists.

 

 

To mikestar:

 

That thing you said about playing 2♠ on the 5-2 fit goes only for weak NT, playing strong NT after 1♠-1NT-2♣-2♠ you are gonna rebid 2NT.

 

I've read that sims showed 50-50 results between 1NT and 2M

 

You are talking about any 5-2 fits or when opener has the 5c suit?, when it is responder (Weak hand) who has teh 5c suit it is clear that has to play in 2M, since you will hardly have netries enough to stablish the suit.

[pbleighton]

"You are talking about any 5-2 fits or when opener has the 5c suit?, when it is responder (Weak hand) who has teh 5c suit it is clear that has to play in 2M, since you will hardly have netries enough to stablish the suit. "

 

I believe that the study was after 1M-1NT(forcing)-2x-2M, though I'm not sure.

 

Peter