you be the judge

[yaohung]

as you can see we have almost cold 7NT but we end up with 6C. There are very few bids(X= negative), need you opinion for

1. The reasonable auction (not necessary to be in the best contract)
   
2. your opinion for the percentage of the fault (N/S)
   

[hv=pc=n&s=s5hk6da76cak87654&n=sa6haq98742dkqj5c&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1c3sdp6cppp]266|200|play 2/1 both side.[/hv]

[TWO4BRIDGE]

6C bid ... not good :

 

1C - (3S) - X

4C - ( p ) - 4S! = "only forcing bid( other than RKC ) after a Neg-DBL is a cuebid"

5C - ( p ) - 5H

6H ... all pass

[MrAce]

6C bid ... not good :

 

1C - (3S) - X

4C - ( p ) - 4S! = "only forcing bid( other than RKC ) after a Neg-DBL is a cuebid"

5C - ( p ) - 5H

6H ... all pass

 

Very interesting, where were u planning to land, god forbid, if pd was void or stiff in your suit after u cued and bid 5♥ ?

 

I would personally bid 4♥ over 3♠, where am i going without a trump ? Does 4♥ show a bad hand at this vulnerability and over preempt ? I don't know if we can bid grand but i am pretty sure we can bid slam ♥.

 

I think jumping to 6♣ was the worst bid in this auction.

[inquiry]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the leap to 6♣ was not right. The negative double did not promise club support, so to even consider 6♣ as a bid, one has to have at most one loser in the club suit opposite shortness: which this suit is not. However, opposite a jump to 6♣, West has a monster hand for his "negative" double. Parnter couldn't be counting on anything near this much, so West's pass is not great either. The problem is West has no clear road forward. So I will have to rate the worse bid as 6♣ like others.

 

This would be a useful time to be playing "bergen switch". I am not convinced it works best after a 1♠ overcall, but it does seem to work great when you have a hand like this where you might not want to bid 4♥ (non-forcing). What is Bergen Switch? Your parnter opens a minor, and the opponents overcall 1S, 2S or 3S, you switch the meaning of a simple bid in the "other minor" (in this case diamonds) and hearts. So here, a 4♦ bid would show a heart suit. And a four heart bid would show a diamond suit. Obviously, both bids are forcing. Playing Bergen Swicth here you would be better placed.

 

1♣=(3♠)=4♦=(Pass); 4♥=(pass)

 

The 4♥ bid here shows at the least a tolerance for hearts. Now West might try to take control, i would not use blackwood, because of the club void, but a 4♠ cue-bid is in order. However, a "brave" 4NT ask would find the heart king, the club Ace, the diamond Ace, and that would be enough to bid the grand slam, or at least get to hearts in slam.

 

Sadly, in the past couple of years, I have not played Bergen switch. This hand is an example of why I liked it over 2♠ and 3♠ preempts. There is plenty of room for normal auctions after a 1♠ overcall.

[yaohung]

6C bid ... not good :

 

1C - (3S) - X

4C - ( p ) - 4S! = "only forcing bid( other than RKC ) after a Neg-DBL is a cuebid"

5C - ( p ) - 5H

6H ... all pass

 

We don't think 4C is a forcing bid in most partnership. even face S xx H Axxx D KQxxx C Jx only 10 counts which should be the lowest requirement for this negative double. I guess 4H should be better call than X(which suggests strongly no suit to introduce).

[MrAce]

 

The 4♥ bid here shows at the least a tolerance for hearts......

 

And what does he do when he doesn't have a ♥ tolerance ? And i am not talking about this hand, i am asking how do they ever stop in 4♥ when pd's tolerance was not needed for game ?

 

I don't think 4♥ promise anything, sometimes opener will have nothing better to offer. Thus, eventhough i liked the switch idea, in practice it is exactly same with direct 4♥ bid, unless you force opener to bid something that he doesn't have when no tolerance.

 

xxx

x

AQxx

AKxxx

 

Ax

AKQxxx

xxx

xx

[inquiry]

And what does he do when he doesn't have a ♥ tolerance ? And i am not talking about this hand, i am asking how do they ever stop in 4♥ when pd's tolerance was not needed for game ?

 

I don't think 4♥ promise anything, sometimes opener will have nothing better to offer. Thus, eventhough i liked the switch idea, in practice it is exactly same with direct 4♥ bid, unless you force opener to bid something that he doesn't have when no tolerance.

 

xxx

x

AQxx

AKxxx

 

Ax

AKQxxx

xxx

xx

 

 

I would hate to hold that north opposite a 4♥ bid showing hearts or a 4♦ bid showing hearts. Not sure if I would bid 4NT (longer clubs, but showing diamonds too) or bid 4♥ (or pass 4♥. But I do know if I held that south hand and parnter bid 4♥ over 4♦ I would pass. I have six losers. Compare that to the south hand in this puzzle, which has only 3 losers and a longer heart suit. I've only played this kind of bid with MishoVng (wish he played more these days). We used a lot of switch bids and transfer bids and usually landed on our feet. When we didn't we reallly screwed up of course.

[WellSpyder]

6C bid ... not good :

 

1C - (3S) - X

4C - ( p ) - 4S! = "only forcing bid( other than RKC ) after a Neg-DBL is a cuebid"

5C - ( p ) - 5H

6H ... all pass

How does S know he is not going to be passed out in either 4♣ or 5♣? Does this really look like a minimum hand after partner has tried twice to get you to show some signs of life???

[rhm]

 

[*]The reasonable auction (not necessary to be in the best contract)

1♣-(3♠)-X

5♣--6♥

7♥

 

The last two bids require good judgment.

 

[*]your opinion for the percentage of the fault (N/S)

South overbid. He has to take the blame.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[yaohung]

1♣-(3♠)-X

5♣--6♥

7♥

 

The last two bids require good judgment.

 

I agree the last comment that 6H and 7H require good judgement. I also agree 6C is a overbid. The matter bothers me most is that 6H call is easier to reach under 6C(indicate spade shortness and H strength) rather than 5C (H stiff or void possible). 6H is a call of double dummy.

 

Another odd thing is negative double then bid suit usually indicates less strength than strong free bid. Perhaps this logic can not apply the auction above game level.

[yaohung]

1♣-(3♠)-X

5♣--6♥

7♥

=======================================

The last two bids require good judgment.

 

I agree the last comment that 6H and 7H require good judgement. I also agree 6C is a overbid. The matter bothers me most is that 6H call is easier to reach under 6C(indicate spade shortness and H strength) rather than 5C (H stiff or void possible). 6H is a call of double dummy(not judgement call) in the above auction.

 

Another odd thing is negative double then bid suit usually indicates less strength than strong free bid. Perhaps this logic can not apply the auction above game level.

[bluecalm]

 

6C bid ... not good :

 

1C - (3S) - X

4C - ( p ) - 4S! = "only forcing bid( other than RKC ) after a Neg-DBL is a cuebid"

5C - ( p ) - 5H

6H ... all pass

 

Sweet but partner made negative double at 3level and you are bidding 4♣ which is not forcing while your hand warrant at least game. Completely normal hand for partner:

 

Axx

Axxx

Kxxx

xx

 

And he won't even consider raising you but 12 tricks are laydown.

There is merit in playing this dbl as game forcing but this is not standard by any means.

 

This would be a useful time to be playing "bergen switch"

 

Nice convention, I haven't heard about it, but... :

 

The 4♥ bid here shows at the least a tolerance for hearts.

 

Wishful thinking imo. Why we are not able to play in 4♥ if I have 7 of them ? or 6very good ones ?

Imo partner should accept this transfer with for example Axx x KQxxx Kxxx which isn't exactly tolerance and even with:

Axxx - KQxxxx QJx.

[gszes]

6c worst easily but not because the hand is hopeless (it is quite good hand after p neg x but because the suit itself is not self sufficient (pard neg x did not promise clubs).

 

IMO a better bid is 4s. While this hides a decent 6 card suit for the time being it getsthe idea across that you have a tremendous hand and no clear direction (unless you have heart support and will show it later). I know this goes against the grain to temporaily suppress AKxxxx but the mean opps took away a ton of space and now we do the best we can and step one should be to show that our hand is slam oriented.

 

A far worse problem might have been what to do if it went 1c 3s x 4s:)))) count your blessings

[bluecalm]

IMO a better bid is 4s. While this hides a decent 6 card suit for the time being it getsthe idea across that you have a tremendous hand and no clear direction

 

Despite you have quite a clear direction with your 7carder. Most of the time partner is balanced and has club tolerance (because the less he has in clubs the less he is likely to double).

[whereagles]

This is "preempts work" #1238932.

 

South's 6♣ is, in my opinion, a perfectly normal shot. I dislike North's dbl much more than South's slightly optimistic slam bid. Me opposite me would bid

 

1♣ (3♠) 4♥

4♠ 6♥

[rhm]

This is "preempts work" #1238932.

 

South's 6♣ is, in my opinion, a perfectly normal shot.

The issue is: What is the difference between bidding 5♣ and 6♣ and how often will 6♣ make if responder decides to pass 5♣. I think 5♣ does not only show long ♣ in this sequence but also more than a minimum in HCP. That's why I think North should risk 6♥ over 5♣.

 

I dislike North's dbl much more than South's slightly optimistic slam bid. Me opposite me would bid

 

1♣ (3♠) 4♥

4♠ 6♥

South has probably just enough to proceed over 4♥. He certainly would pass without the ♣king of if he would hold the same hand but a doubleton in ♠ and six ♣s. Yet the slam is just as good. Also you might play 4♥ when 7♦ is on.

But once South does proceed with 4♠, why would North want to bypass the grand? Even bidding RKB (yes I know North has a void, but it is not forbidden) must be better than jumping to 6♥.

North hand is simply too good to bid 4♥. The only way to convey this is by doubling first and then bidding ♥s or by bidding 5♥ straight away, which should be a general invitation not asking for ♠ control after a preempt. The trouble with 5♥ is that you would like better ♥ for that and again it would bury ♦, but 5♥ is a better bid than 4♥.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[whereagles]

Rainer, it's just too difficult. Too much guessing involved. I would just settle for the best possible result, not the best result possible.

[Free]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the leap to 6♣ was not right.

 

6♣ is from outer space. It takes a rocket scientist to tell them that it's wrong.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

as you can see we have almost cold 7NT but we end up with 6C.

[hv=pc=n&s=s5hk6da76cak87654&n=sa6haq98742dkqj5c&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1c3sdp6cppp]266|200|play 2/1 both side.[/hv]

There was a similar auction posted last month [ http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/44529-blech/ ] for a 1-minor open and a 3S WJO

Here we have a 1C open:

 

1C - ( 3S ) - ??

 

Rodger Clee suggested "switching" Responder's 4H and 4om ( the other minor ) bids where here:

4D! = long

♥

and

4H! = long

♦

( the other minor )

Is this the "Bergen Switch" convention ?

 

Thus, it might go:

1C - ( 3S ) - 4D!

4H - ( p ) - 4S! = RKC ( yess, I know he has a ♣ void)

.......................( so, if 1 key card is missing, you would stop in 6H )

 

4NT ( 0/3 ) - 7NT ( counting 1s, 7h, 4d, 1c )

[inquiry]

There was a similar auction posted last month [ http://www.bridgebas...ic/44529-blech/ ] for a 1-minor open and a 3S WJO

Here we have a 1C open:

 

1C - ( 3S ) - ??

 

Rodger Clee suggested "switching" Responder's 4H and 4om ( the other minor ) bids where here:

4D! = long

♥

and

4H! = long

♦

( the other minor )

Is this the "Bergen Switch" convention ?

 

Thus, it might go:

1C - ( 3S ) - 4D!

4H - ( p ) - 4S! = RKC ( yess, I know he has a ♣ void)

.......................( so, if 1 key card is missing, you would stop in 6H )

 

4NT ( 0/3 ) - 7NT ( counting 1s, 7h, 4d, 1c )

 

Marty suggested this switch (other minor and other major) after a spade overcall (even one level at one level). Not much on the internet about it (goggle bergen switch), so it doesn't seem to be real popular. I found it first on bridgematter's website and one of my early bbo partners (mishovnbg) liked to play it.

[paulhar]

The worst (or perhaps the best) bid was 3S! No number of clubs from South is forcing, and South just has to guess. Souch could bid 4S, but without a club fit, is South really that strong? Imagine that North holds xxxx, AQxx, KQJx, x - where does the partnership want to play?

 

If South doesn't cuebid, whatever he bids is the likely final contract, so he just has to play the odds, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if a simulation picked 6C as the winner (although my bet would be on 5C.) Those stating that 6C is unbelievably bad are playing results IMO - almost certainly if partner has a balanced hand, you want to play in clubs.

 

Now it's North's guess. It seems "obvious" to bid 5H over 5C, but in the actual auction, North must guess the extent of the heart fit and the solidity of the clubs. While the result is rediculous, I remain unconvinced that anybody made a terrible bid.

 

By the way, with no agreements, I like an immediate cuebid by responder instead of the negative double, correcting the inevitable 5C bid to 5H. North just knows that partner is bidding clubs over the negative double, and this hand looks too good to just bid 4H over 3S. The only downside I can see to this is if partner thinks your cuebid shows club support and starts bidding controls (where he will think your next bid is a control.) Without prior discussion, I wouldn't think partner should think this, but it would not totally shock me if partner did think that.

[yaohung]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the leap to 6♣ was not right. The negative double did not promise club support, so to even consider 6♣ as a bid, one has to have at most one loser in the club suit opposite shortness: which this suit is not. However, opposite a jump to 6♣, West has a monster hand for his "negative" double. Parnter couldn't be counting on anything near this much, so West's pass is not great either. The problem is West has no clear road forward. So I will have to rate the worse bid as 6♣ like others.

 

===========================================================

I just don't get it that the reason to pass 6C bid not forward going to bid 6H. Spade shortness is almost sure under 6C bid and we also expect H shortness as well??

[rhm]

I just don't get it that the reason to pass 6C bid not forward going to bid 6H. Spade shortness is almost sure under 6C bid and we also expect H shortness as well??

I would bid 6♥ over 6♣, not least because partner may be able to raise to seven.

Nevertheless 6♣ must show a very good long (some would say solid) suit and 6♥ could be very wrong. People tend to pass such jumps to slam.

 

If you are prepared to commit to slam with the South hand after the double of 3♠, why not bid 4♠ with the intention of following up by bidding 6♣?

 

Partner will certainly let you play ♣ if he has ♣Qx or three little ♣s and if he has any less, another strain may be better. He will not correct unless having a very good suit himself and since you have a top honor in both red suits you certainly do not mind a correction.

 

Rainer Herrmann