A learner's question

[Rivervue36]

I was dealt 14 HCP with an AKxx major and Qxx, Kxx, Qxx. I am trying to be consistant with what I am learning and only bid 5 card majors. Are there exceptions? I was first to bid. Should I bid here?

 

Rivervue36

[wank]

I was dealt 14 HCP with an AKxx major and Qxx, Kxx, Qxx. I am trying to be consistant with what I am learning and only bid 5 card majors. Are there exceptions? I was first to bid. Should I bid here?

 

Rivervue36

 

yes you should definitely bid. it's entirely normal to open the bidding on any hand with 12 or more points. as to what you should open depends on your system.

 

if 1NT in your system shows 15-17, you can't open that.

if 1 of a major in your system shows 5 you can't do that either.

 

this is an entirely normal system, played by most of the world. they all open 1 club on this hand. (the rules for which minor to open vary somewhat depending on the relative length and your system but for this hand everyone would choose 1 club)

[Stephen Tu]

You should probably download the "learn to play bridge" tutorial from https://web.acbl.org...rnToPlayBridge/

Also maybe get Kantar's "Bridge for Dummies" book.

 

Anyway, whoever is teaching you how to bid apparently didn't give you sufficient information. It's basically mandatory to open if you have 14 HCP and no one else has bid before you (only passed). People will generally open nearly all 13 HCP hands as well. 12 HCP balanced hand, it starts to get optional, depends on how aggressive you are, tend to open holding aces and kings, filling T/9s, you can perhaps pass if holding mostly queens/jacks and honors in short suits, or 4333 shape. Unbalanced hands you can go a little lighter high card point-wise, if the points are mostly in your long suits.

 

If you are playing a 5 card major system, then if you don't hold a 5 cd major, and have a balanced hand outside your opening notrump ranges (15-17 for 1nt, 20-21 for 2nt, 22+ for 2c planning to rebid in NT), that forces you to open a minor, which might be only 3 cards long, so with the given hand open 1 club.

Generally the rules for Standard American beginners are:

- open 2c if extremely strong (22+ if balanced)

- if balanced and 15-17 / 20-21, open 1nt/2nt respectively (with differing opinions on whether to open NT or a 5 card major if holding 5332 with 5 spades or hearts)

- holding 5+ cd suits, open the longest suit, open the higher ranking if two of equal length

- holding only 4 cd suits, open in a 4 cd minor if you have one, most open 1d with 4d + 4c. If only 4 cd majors held, open 1c (4333/4423/3433), but open 1d with 4432.

[Phil]

Good question from a n00b and welcome to the forums!

 

If you are asking yourself what exceptions should you make to a system that is being taught to me, you are on your way.

 

Specifically, AKxx isn't really strong enough to obviate the rule of opening a major suit with five, however the time that you might want to open a four card major is when you have a rebid problem. For instance, I wouldn't criticize someone that wanted to open 1♥ on ♠x ♥AKQx ♦Qxxxx ♣Jxx.

[Fluffy]

with opening values you must open, this is the easy decision, once you know you must open you find out what to open, but don't pass with opening values for not liking your openings (maybe you can downgrade 12 HCP hands, but downgrading stronger hands its a very very bad idea)

[Quantumcat]

Here is a quick set of questions to ask yourself to find out the best opening bid and rebid. Make sure you ask them in this specific order:

 

1. Am I balanced? (I have only 8 cards in my two longest suits)

----If I have 12-14 points, I open a five-card major if I have one or my longest minor, then rebid NT cheaply.

----If I have 15-17 points, I open 1NT.

----If I have 18-19 points, I open a five-card major if I have one or my longest minor, then jump-rebid notrumps.

 

2. Am I one-suited? (my longest suit is at least 2 cards longer than my shorter one)

----If I have 12-15 points, I open that suit and rebid it at the cheapest level.

----If I have 16-18 points, I open that suit and jump-rebid it.

----If I have 19+ points, I open that suit and then bid game.

 

3. Are my two suits equal in length?

----I open my higher-ranked one then rebid my lower-ranked one.

 

4. Is my longest suit higher-ranked than my shorter one?

----I open my longer suit then rebid my shorter one.

 

5. Is my longest suit lower-ranked than my shorter one?

----If I have 12-15 points, I open my longer suit and then rebid it at the cheapest level.

----If I have 16+ points, I open my longer suit then rebid my shorter suit.

 

The rebids are what you plan to do if you don't have support for your partner's suit. If you do, you should:

 

1. With 12-15 points, and 3 or 4 cards, raise their suit one level.

2. with 16-18 points and 4 cards, raise their suit two levels.

3. With 19+ points and 4 cards, bid game in their suit.

 

Following the questions above, with your hand you would say:

 

Question one: Am I balanced? Yes.

I have 12-14 points. I open a five card major if I have one: no. So I open my longest minor: 1♣. (Different people have different rules for which one to open when they are equal length).

 

I now plan to rebid 1NT if I can, or raise 1♥ or 1♠ to 2 if partner bids one.

 

Even though you would have three-card support for diamonds if partner bids them, you would generally not raise because you try to play in notrumps in preference to a minor whenever you can. This is because even making a trick less in notrumps than in a minor, you score more points (9 tricks in diamonds = 110, 8 tricks in notrumps = 120).

 

It is also wrong to bid 1♠ if partner bids 1♦ or 1♥. Bidding two suits means you have two suits. If you are balanced, you must open or rebid notrumps if you don't have support for partner.

[Stephen Tu]

It is also wrong to bid 1♠ if partner bids 1♦ or 1♥. Bidding two suits means you have two suits. If you are balanced, you must open or rebid notrumps if you don't have support for partner.

 

That's quite an overstatement. This is style issue, and probably in Standard American it is still quite a bit more common to teach beginners to go ahead and bid up the-line, not bypassing to rebid 1nt. If you are in Australia it is probably different. There are both advantages and disadvantages to bypassing major(s) to rebid 1nt. You get some concealment of opener's hand, and are a bit ahead in narrowing down opener's shape when he does rebid a suit, and make reaching club partials more accurate. However you will miss good spade partials when responder has less than invitational values and is 4-4 or 4-5 in the majors.

[Quantumcat]

The reason it is wrong to bid 1♠ holding only three clubs is that responder may not wish to play in notrumps and prefer clubs to spades, and then you play in 2♣ with a six-card fit.

 

Don't think you can wriggle out by bidding 2♥ - failing to raise on three-card support on the first round then raising later at minimum level shows a medium hand (16-18 HCP) with a 4324 or 4315 shape.

 

This is analogous to responder changing suit after a 1-major opening then raising the major to three to show a medium hand (10-12 HCP) with three-card support. With a medium hand and four-card support, he would bid three immediatiely. Same as with the opener, with four hearts and a medium hand he would bid 3♥ right away.

 

By choosing to bid 1NT with a 4333 instead of raising, you are choosing to forever bury the fact that you have three-card support. But a five-three fit with a 4333 dummy is probably going to be equivalent to a five-two fit, that's why it is acceptable to choose to not raise with no ruffing value.

[blackshoe]

What is taught to beginners, it seems to me, often lags behind current theory by a good thirty years or more.

[Stephen Tu]

The reason it is wrong to bid 1♠ holding only three clubs is that responder may not wish to play in notrumps and prefer clubs to spades, and then you play in 2♣ with a six-card fit.

 

Obviously if you are playing an up-the-line style responder with 3 clubs is not going to rebid 2c with only three clubs; he will rebid 1nt; this argument makes no sense.

 

With the "always rebid 1nt style", you can sometimes get to 2c when it is a better contract than 1nt, after 1c-1h-1s, since your 1s promises real clubs. However, the "always rebid 1nt" style misses some 2s contracts when having 4333 or 4(32)4 opener opposite a 44(32) or 45(xx) responder if responder has 10- pts and can't really invite over 1nt. In uncontested auctions, it's arguably more problematic to miss spades, if 2c is really the best spot often the opps also have a fit somewhere and already would have bid something. At MP, I think missing the 2s major fit is more costly than missing 2c, since when the trump contract takes only 1 trick more, which is rather frequent, 110 beats 90, however for the minor the score is only 90 for 2c.

 

Certainly the rebid 1nt style has some other stuff going for it on other auctions, but I don't think that it so clear cut that you can proclaim bidding 1s as "wrong". It is not at all like discarded ancient ideas such as not opening 1nt when in range because of not having all suits stopped.

[paulhar]

I'm sure this is overly simplistic but if you're close to an absolute beginner, I believe the following is good advice.

 

When your points are at least thirteen

Not more than twenty-one can be seen

You should open with a bid of one

Your search for a fit has just begun.

 

One notrump is the bid we like best

Show what you got and let pard do the rest

Sixteen to eighteen, no less, no more

A balanced hand is what you're looking for!

 

When one notrump you cannot open

Bid one of a suit and stop your mopin'

Your longest suit will win most wagers

But remember we play five card majors

 

If you don't have five hearts or spades

The minors act as jack-of-all trades

Clubs or diamonds, whichever is longer

It doesn't matter which one is stronger.

 

 

The above would have you open either 1C or 1D. 1C is theoretically correct, but if one of my beginners opened 1D, he is unlikely to come to harm (I'm very happy he chose not to open 1S or 1NT or pass!)

 

 

P.S. For those of you who might teach beginners who think I expect far too little from my students, have you actually watched your students bid?

[daveharty]

 

3. Are my two suits equal in length?

----I open my higher-ranked one then rebid my lower-ranked one.

 

 

This is true if the hand has two five-card suits, or two four card minors (for many people anyway), but is not true for a hand with a four card major and a four card minor, at least not in a 5 card major system. Then there is the case where you have two four-card majors; then you are advised to open your third longest suit, or even your fourth longest for some people who open 4=4=3=2 with 1C.

[jillybean]

If you are starting with 'SAYC', this is a good document

 

http://www.okbridge.com/sayc.txt

[helene_t]

Please folks, take this eternal discussion of whether to bid two suits at the 1-level with balanced hands to the advanced section, or to another thread, or even better stop arguing about it :)

 

Erin, there are a few mistakes in your post:

 

1. (Balanced hands): 4441 shapes are usually not considered balanced. Better to say "5332, 4333 or 4432" pattern. Or "no singleton and at most one doubleton".

 

2. (One-suited): "at least two cards longer than your shorter suit", you probably meant "than your second-longest suit". But 5332 and 6421 are generally not shown as one-suiters. I think the best way of saying it is "has a six-card or longer suit and no second suit of length four or more".

 

5. (Longer suit lower ranking): You rebid you second suit at the 1-level if possible.

[vuroth]

Maybe the key point for OP is that a 1♣ opener is often not taken as seriously meaning clubs.

 

If partner bids 1♣ then 2♣, I'll believe they have clubs.

If partner bids 1♣ then NT, I won't believe they have any length in clubs necessarily.

If partner bids 1♣ then 1(suit), then I'll have to wait and see.

 

Once you and your partner get used to that (it will affect how often you answer 2♣ over 1♣ for example), you'll be much more comfortable with 5 card majors.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

There are 40HCP in the deck, on average, you have the right to hold 10HCP.

 

Opening on the 1 level tells p, that you happen to hold "substantially more" HCPs,

than he heas a right to expect.

What "substantially more" means, is a matter of agreement, in the past it meant

and add. King, i.e. 13HCP, now peoble consider 12HCPs enough.

 

The simple rule is, if you have "substantially more" more, than you have to open.

 

Next comes the decision, what to open.

 

The different opening bids tell p something about your shape, besides, that you have

"substantially more".

You already decided, that an opening bid in a major suit, has to show 5 cards, a

common decision, and most likely you also decided, that a 1NT opening bid showes ...

 

This means, if you dont have the right shape and the right amount of points to open 1NT,

and you have no 5 card major, you need to open in a minor suit, independ of the fact, if

you have a 5 card suit or not.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[campboy]

This is true if the hand has two five-card suits, or two four card minors (for many people anyway), but is not true for a hand with a four card major and a four card minor, at least not in a 5 card major system. Then there is the case where you have two four-card majors; then you are advised to open your third longest suit, or even your fourth longest for some people who open 4=4=3=2 with 1C.

No, it's fine -- the point is that if you have two four-card suits you don't get as far as this question since you have already answered "yes" to "am I balanced?"*, and found an opening under #1.

 

*even if 4441, which as Helene points out is not balanced.