Bidding with support they overcall our 1M

[bluecalm]

Let's say it goes:

 

1♠ (2♣) ?

 

Now with spade support we would like to have options to express:

-Normal spade raise

-Game invite

-Game forcing

-Mixed raise

-Preempt

 

That's five hand types which along with playing negative free bids doesn't make it possible to include every one of them in separate bids (but even not nfb players have a problem in 1S - 2H - ?).

 

Now popular convention in Poland is to play that 2NT is game forcing with support, 3C is invite with support, 3S is preemptive and with mixed raise, well you just bid 2S and hope for the best.

I think this is bad and mixed raise is very important hand type.

How do you solve this problem in your system ?

Do you play limited or wide range openers ? (I think this should influence your choice).

 

What about 1M - dbl - ? Now there is more space; is there a place for both mixed raise/invite/GF in your system ?

 

The following hand made me think about it:

Spingold quoter final 2007; last segment

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqt973hkt72dakt5c&w=s5hj54d32caqt6543&n=sa862hq863d96c872&e=skj4ha9dqj874ckj9&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1s2c2s3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

That was the bidding in Closed room which was disaster for Chmurski - Gawrys after Hamman made 3NT.

In the other room Fredin didn't overcall so Rodwell could bid 3♠ as mixed raise and despite Meck going down one it was + 11 imps for Nickell.

[dboxley]

Let's say it goes:

 

1♠ (2♣) ?

 

Now with spade support we would like to have options to express:

-Normal spade raise

-Game invite

-Game forcing

-Mixed raise

-Preempt

 

That's five hand types which along with playing negative free bids doesn't make it possible to include every one of them in separate bids (but even not nfb players have a problem in 1S - 2H - ?).

 

Now popular convention in Poland is to play that 2NT is game forcing with support, 3C is invite with support, 3S is preemptive and with mixed raise, well you just bid 2S and hope for the best.

I think this is bad and mixed raise is very important hand type.

How do you solve this problem in your system ?

Do you play limited or wide range openers ? (I think this should influence your choice).

 

What about 1M - dbl - ? Now there is more space; is there a place for both mixed raise/invite/GF in your system ?

 

The following hand made me think about it:

Spingold quoter final 2007; last segment

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqt973hkt72dakt5c&w=s5hj54d32caqt6543&n=sa862hq863d96c872&e=skj4ha9dqj874ckj9&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1s2c2s3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

That was the bidding in Closed room which was disaster for Chmurski - Gawrys after Hamman made 3NT.

In the other room Fredin didn't overcall so Rodwell could bid 3♠ as mixed raise and despite Meck going down one it was + 11 imps for Nickell.

 

I play that after 1♠ 2♣:

 

2♠=normal raise

3♣=limit raise +

3♥(jump to 3 level in suit below our suit)=mixed raise (this bid is sometimes not available)

Splinters are on

[TWO4BRIDGE]

3♥ would be a fit-showing-jump .

[gnasher]

I play 3♠ as mixed. With a weaker hand I bid 2♠. I think this is better because:

- Mixed raises are more frequent.

- A mixed raise makes a more effective preempt, because it's weak enough for the opponents to have to worry that it's their hand, but strong enough for us to be able to penalise them if they bid and they're wrong.

 

I have heard of using 3♥ as one of the raises, but I think a fit jump is more useful.

[ArtK78]

I guess that I play reverse Polish in competition. 2NT is a limit raise and the cue bid is the forcing raise. The rest is the same - jump raises are preemptive, and a simple raise includes both the normal simple raise and the mixed raise.

 

While there may be instances where the distinction between a "normal" raise and a mixed raise will be significant, I suspect that they are quite rare. The cited example may be the most spectacular instance. Still, we do not know with 100% certainty that Chmurski - Gawrys would have bid to 4♠ if South knew that North had one extra spade. The key to the hand was the overcall and East's subsequent 3NT bid.

[mtvesuvius]

I usually play:

 

2N - Limit or better 4 card raise

3♣ - Limit or better 3 card raise

3♦/♥ - Fit jumps

3♠ - Mixed

2♠ - Anything else

[bluecalm]

I guess that I play reverse Polish in competition. 2NT is a limit raise and the cue bid is the forcing raise

 

We don't have standard for that in Poland. Long time ago everybody played like you. Now some people reversed it, some didn't and you have to always ask before you play with someone :-)

[bluecalm]

I play 3♠ as mixed. With a weaker hand I bid 2♠. I think this is better because:

 

I thought about it but I feel that it's too risky not to be able to bid 4S over their 4H with 10 spades because we don't know partner have weak hand with 4 of them and not balanced 6-10 count with 3 of them.

I don't have experience playing this way though, maybe it doesn't happen too often ?

[karlson]

With one partner I play that 2n is inv+ 4-card raise, 3c is a mixed raise, 3s is weak, and 3-card inv+ raises start with double. It's not totally unreasonable, you rate to survive the overloaded double when you have spades. With hearts you probably can't afford to do this.

[nigel_k]

Another suggestion:

 

2♠ = Low ODR and less than limit raise. Essentially standard but includes low ODR hands with mixed raise strength.

2NT = High ODR hand, mixed raise strength or better. Usually four card support.

3♣ = Limit+ with low ODR. Usually three card support.

3♠ = Weak

 

If the auction gets high quickly, ODR is more important than high cards. If they pass, there is room over 2NT to find out if you have enough to bid game on strength.

[OleBerg]

2nt = 4(+)cardsupport, invite+

3♣ = 3-cardsupport, invite+

3♦/3♥ = Mixed raise, bidding the suit that is most likely to cover deep loosers in partners hand.

3♠ = Preemptive.

[MrAce]

Those who play 2 NT = 4 card fit, how do u guys handle the natural 10-11 hcp and stopper hands ? xx Axx Kxxx KJxx ? Double ?

 

Second, do u play it only over 2♣ overcall ? (seems like there is enough space to handle by starting double over 2♣ only)

 

Third, If u play 2 NT overcall showing fit also over 2♦, and if answer to my first question is DOUBLE, what do u do when pd bids at 3 level ? Just bid game and hope to make ? xx AQx KTx JTxxx ?

[gnasher]

Those who play 2 NT = 4 card fit, how do u guys handle the natural 10-11 hcp and stopper hands ? xx Axx Kxxx KJxx ? Double ?

Those hands don't seem to come up much. It's quite a small set of hands: exactly invitational, clubs too weak to want to defend 2♣x, clubs good enough to want to play notrumps, not three spades, not suitable for a negative double, no five-card suit that can be bid conveniently.

 

When the problem does arise, you choose something imperfect: pass, 3NT, double, or a 4-card minor.

 

In this particular sequence, you could, if you wanted to, pass and then take out partner's double to 2NT. On your example hand, though, I'd be inclined to just pass 2♣x.

 

Second, do u play it only over 2♣ overcall ? (seems like there is enough space to handle by starting double over 2♣ only)

No, over anything. If you double, partner will assume you have a normal negative double, so you'd only double if you were willing to hear him jump to 4♥.

[Cyberyeti]

What about 1M - dbl - ? Now there is more space; is there a place for both mixed raise/invite/GF in your system ?

 

We use 1M-x-1N as a raise, does anybody else do this ?

[gwnn]

I play 3♠ as mixed. With a weaker hand I bid 2♠. I think this is better because:

- Mixed raises are more frequent.

- A mixed raise makes a more effective preempt, because it's weak enough for the opponents to have to worry that it's their hand, but strong enough for us to be able to penalise them if they bid and they're wrong.

 

I have heard of using 3♥ as one of the raises, but I think a fit jump is more useful.

+2 (I voted one and owe you another one)

[gnasher]

We use 1M-x-1N as a raise, does anybody else do this ?

I have done, but I don't like it. I think it's useful to be able to bid 1NT to show scattered values, so I prefer 1NT natural and 2♣ as a raise.

 

Better still is to play transfers, starting from redouble, Amongst other things, that allows you to show a 1NT bid and put the strong hand on lead. Playing the suit below the major as your artificial raise is probably a good idea in itself, because it's more preemptive than 1NT or 2♣.

[awm]

I prefer my jump raises to be vulnerability-dependent. When we are NV, I play 3♠ as weak; when we are V I prefer 3♠ as mixed. The reasoning is that when vulnerable, we are less likely to want to sacrifice (so showing the weak raise is less important) and we are more concerned about going down (so making a weak raise on really horrible hands is out, making the weak raise a lot less frequent).

 

I'll also comment that I'm not a big fan of the seemingly modern style where everything is a raise. Sure, you can play 2NT as a raise, all jump shifts as raises, etc. But these come up only occasionally, and only actually help you a small fraction of the times they come up. In comparison, it seems pretty common to have a hand with a long suit that's not in the range for a two-level bid (too strong if you play NFB or too weak if you play FFB)... and it seems pretty common to have a balanced hand with 10-11 points where you want to invite in notrump. Both these hand types suffer substantially if you play the "everything is a raise" style, and I don't think you come out ahead.

[MrAce]

I prefer my jump raises to be vulnerability-dependent. When we are NV, I play 3♠ as weak; when we are V I prefer 3♠ as mixed. The reasoning is that when vulnerable, we are less likely to want to sacrifice (so showing the weak raise is less important) and we are more concerned about going down (so making a weak raise on really horrible hands is out, making the weak raise a lot less frequent).

 

I'll also comment that I'm not a big fan of the seemingly modern style where everything is a raise. Sure, you can play 2NT as a raise, all jump shifts as raises, etc. But these come up only occasionally, and only actually help you a small fraction of the times they come up. In comparison, it seems pretty common to have a hand with a long suit that's not in the range for a two-level bid (too strong if you play NFB or too weak if you play FFB)... and it seems pretty common to have a balanced hand with 10-11 points where you want to invite in notrump. Both these hand types suffer substantially if you play the "everything is a raise" style, and I don't think you come out ahead.

 

Thats exactly what i think.

[655321]

Those who play 2 NT = 4 card fit, how do u guys handle the natural 10-11 hcp and stopper hands ? xx Axx Kxxx KJxx ? Double ?

Those hands don't seem to come up much. It's quite a small set of hands: exactly invitational, clubs too weak to want to defend 2♣x, clubs good enough to want to play notrumps, not three spades, not suitable for a negative double, no five-card suit that can be bid conveniently.

 

and it seems pretty common to have a balanced hand with 10-11 points where you want to invite in notrump.

 

Agree with gnasher and very much disagree with awm. Far from being pretty common, in my experience it is extremely rare to have a hand where you want to invite in notrump.

[bluecalm]

I prefer my jump raises to be vulnerability-dependent. When we are NV, I play 3♠ as weak; when we are V I prefer 3♠ as mixed

 

I agree with this but the problem of mixed raise not vul remains.

We play negative free bids so we don't play "everything is a raise".

If goes:

1S - 2C we need both 3D and 3H as natural strong bids so what is left is: 2NT, 3C, 3S and I wonder what is the best use for them.

[awm]

Agree with gnasher and very much disagree with awm. Far from being pretty common, in my experience it is extremely rare to have a hand where you want to invite in notrump.

 

You have to compare to the other possibility. The balanced invite is a hand with 3-4♣, 10-11 points, less than three spades. Perhaps not that common. But the hands you're gaining on are (for example) hands with exactly three spades and 10-11 points (i.e. by distinguishing three and four card limit raises). These are not that common either!

 

The other point is that what I've lost is the ability to make extremely fine distinctions in raises. I can bid 3♣ as "limit+" but can't distinguish between three and four card limit. I can bid 2♠ as "less than limit" but can't distinguish between a weak three and four-card raise. Sure, I lose a little bit. But if you play everything as a raise and you have the balanced invite, you are either blasting a 3NT that probably won't make, or passing and hoping partner will balance (he may not, even on hands where 3NT makes), or doubling and hoping partner doesn't hang you in hearts. All of these seem potentially pretty bad... much worse than my possible consequences because partner can't tell between my three and four card raises.

[655321]

I wasn't commenting on the merits or otherwise of using 2NT as a raise, I was commenting on your claim that invitational notrump hands are 'pretty common'. My experience suggests that this is false, and gnasher's post explains why - a 2NT invite has to fit a bunch of different criteria, a raise doesn't need a lot more than '3 trumps, inv plus' or '4 trumps, inv plus', whatever your exact agreements are.

 

Changing the subject, my personal preference is to use 2NT as a raise because I feel a lot more comfortable knowing whether partner has 3 or 4 card support. I don't claim this is empirically better. It is certainly possible that my feeling more comfortable doesn't translate into winning more IMPs.

[han]

You have to compare to the other possibility. The balanced invite is a hand with 3-4♣, 10-11 points, less than three spades and as gnasher wrote, also fewer than 4 hearts, fewer than 5 diamonds, and clubs not good enough to want to defend 2CX. Perhaps not that common. But the hands you're gaining on are (for example) hands with exactly three spades and 10-11 points (i.e. by distinguishing three and four card limit raises). These are not that common either!

 

The other point is that what I've lost is the ability to make extremely fine distinctions in raises. I can bid 3♣ as "limit+" but can't distinguish between three and four card limit. I can bid 2♠ as "less than limit" but can't distinguish between a weak three and four-card raise. Sure, I lose a little bit. But if you play everything as a raise and you have the balanced invite, you are either blasting a 3NT that probably won't make, or passing and hoping partner will balance (he may not, even on hands where 3NT makes), or doubling and hoping partner doesn't hang you in hearts. All of these seem potentially pretty bad... much worse than my possible consequences because partner can't tell between my three and four card raises.

 

Fixed your post.