Designing a precision system

[Free]

I'm trying to make a precision system which has full relay structure, and which also bids as natural as possible when not in relay auctions. Here's the basic opening structure:

 

1♣ = 15+ any

1♦ = 9-14, 4+♦, can have longer ♣, unbalanced

1♥ = 9-14, 5+♥ unless 4-4-1-4, unbalanced

1♠ = 9-14, 5+♠

1NT = 11-14, balanced, no 5 card ♠ (5 ♥s possible)

2♣ = 9-14, 6+♣ or 5+♣ with a 4 card M

2♦ and higher bids free :D

(with 9-10 balanced, you have to pass)

(in 3rd and 4th seat we move the ranges up with 2 points)

 

After 1♣:

I can use whatever response structure I want. I'll probably use a full-relay structure.

 

After 1♦:

I use 1♥ as either 4+ ♥s or inv+ relay, so it's forcing for 1 round. This can start a complete relay auction. 1♠ shows 4+ ♠s and is also forcing for 1 round. Both 1M-responses will enable us to find 4-4 and 5-3 fits in the Major immediatly (1NT bid available to show 3 card support since unbalanced).

1NT will be natural, but I don't know if I would give a specific meaning to that bid yet (like exactly 4-4M or so).

 

After 1♥:

I use 1♠ as natural (4+ card) and forcing for 1 round.

 

After both 1M openings:

I use 1NT as inv+ relay, which can start a complete relay auction.

 

Over all 1-level bids, new suits at 2-level are NF, jumps to 2M are weak.

 

After 1NT bid, I can also use whatever I want.

 

After 2♣ opening, I think 2♦ as relay, and other natural and NF.

 

I still have doubts on how to use 3-level responses to 1M. I was thinking about Bergen raises, or perhaps FSJ's, or perhaps different usage after each 1M opening. I was also wondering if Bergen would work after 1♥ when opener has a 4-4-1-4... Anybody can simulate this?

 

Also the 2NT response over 1M isn't sure. I was first thinking of using 2NT as a mini-splinter in any suit, opener will bid a suit where he has game-interest if responder has a stiff in that specific suit. Responder can still bid his stiff or bid 3M when he didn't get a good answer (or has ♠ splinter after 1♥ opener).

 

So what are your first impressions? Is some stuff bad, did I forget something, is it the best you've ever seen? :)

[hrothgar]

What do you open with the following hand?

 

AKQ

7642

7

Q5432

[Free]

What do you open with the following hand?

 

AKQ

7642

7

Q5432

2♣, against my will :)

 

I might decide to pass this one...

[pbleighton]

Free - I have been considering a somewhat similar system:

 

Because of the hands like the one Richard posted, would you consider giving up 2D as weak, putting 4-4-1-4, 4-4-0-5, 4-3-1-5, and 3-4-1-5 hands into it, and putting 4-1-3-5 and 1-4-3-5 hands into 1D. If you pass the 4-1-3-5 and 1-4-3-5 hands below 12 points, 1D is 4+ 95% of the time. If you open them down to 10, it's still over 90%.

 

In this way, 2C is 6+ cards, and 1D is quite playable - I think you could assume 4D and have decent success.

 

2D would be ugly (but rare), and forbids 2D as weak, but I think it might be an acceptable price to pay.

 

Peter

[Free]

Well actually, I wanted to keep the 2♦ free...

 

At this moment, 1♦ is most of the time a 5 card I think, since it's unbalanced. Only 5+♣-4♦ and 4441's are from 4 card...

[jtfanclub]

I'm trying to make a precision system which has full relay structure, and which also bids as natural as possible when not in relay auctions.  Here's the basic opening structure:

 

1♣ = 15+ any

1♦ = 9-14, 4+♦, can have longer ♣, unbalanced

1♥ = 9-14, 5+♥ unless 4-4-1-4, unbalanced

1♠ = 9-14, 5+♠

1NT = 11-14, balanced, no 5 card ♠ (5 ♥s possible)

2♣ = 9-14, 6+♣ or 5+♣ with a 4 card M

2♦ and higher bids free  :)

(with 9-10 balanced, you have to pass)

(in 3rd and 4th seat we move the ranges up with 2 points)

 

So what are your first impressions?  Is some stuff bad, did I forget something, is it the best you've ever seen?  B)

Hell of a range for 1D/1H/1S/2C.

 

I don't suppose I could talk you into 2D/2H/2S/3C being 12-14, leaving the earlier natural openings as 9-11? :)

[Free]

9-14 doesn't mean we open with ALL 9 HCP's... Usually rule of 18 should be ok, since that's a rule here in Belgium... So with a 4441 you need at least 10HCP.

 

It's more like (8/9)10-14 B)

[jtfanclub]

9-14 doesn't mean we open with ALL 9 HCP's... Usually rule of 18 should be ok, since that's a rule here in Belgium... So with a 4441 you need at least 10HCP.

 

It's more like (8/9)10-14 B)

OK, well, then it looks much better. :) I don't see any obvious problems with it.

[luke warm]

looks good, but here are a few thoughts

 

1) make 1C=10-12 balanced OR any 15+

2) make 1D="could be short, could have clubs"

3) make 1NT=12-14 all the time

4) make 2C=4441 or 4450 hands, any shortness, 10-14

5) make 2D=weak 2 in either major OR roman with 15+ OR balanced 20-21

 

i know you don't like the 1D bid showing 1 or 2 cards, but since it can be made with a club suit, it does free up 2C (which is almost as hated in precision as 1D)... now on richard's hypothetical, open 1D

 

the major suit bids are fine, tho i'd probably not have the exception for spades... iow, i'd probably open 1nt with a 5332 12-14 hand... if there's a rebid problem, i'd open 1nt... that means when i open 1M partner can be pretty sure i'm 10-12 balanced (5332) else 9-14 unbalanced

[jtfanclub]

it does free up 2C (which is almost as hated in precision as 1D)...

Really? 2C openings are my second favorite opening in Precision, right behind 1NT. When we have game, it's easy to find. When we don't, it's usually very difficult for opponents. It's a perfect pre-empt when responder is weak, because opponents usually don't have the tools to explore game properly, while the clubs are long enough to sit after an X.

 

Do most people find otherwise?

[pbleighton]

"Really? 2C openings are my second favorite opening in Precision, right behind 1NT. When we have game, it's easy to find. When we don't, it's usually very difficult for opponents. It's a perfect pre-empt when responder is weak, because opponents usually don't have the tools to explore game properly, while the clubs are long enough to sit after an X.

 

Do most people find otherwise?"

 

Two questions:

 

1) Do you put 4-3-1-5 and 3-4-1-5 hands into your 2D opening? If so, how do they perform?

2) How much of a loss do you find not being able to use 2D as preemptive?

 

Peter

[jtfanclub]

"Really? 2C openings are my second favorite opening in Precision, right behind 1NT. When we have game, it's easy to find. When we don't, it's usually very difficult for opponents. It's a perfect pre-empt when responder is weak, because opponents usually don't have the tools to explore game properly, while the clubs are long enough to sit after an X.

 

Do most people find otherwise?"

 

Two questions:

 

1) Do you put 4-3-1-5 and 3-4-1-5 hands into your 2D opening? If so, how do they perform?

2) How much of a loss do you find not being able to use 2D as preemptive?

 

Peter

I open 2C with 4315 and 3415.

 

In my life, I've never used 2D as pre-emptive. It might say I have it with a pickup partnership, but I've never once used it. So I can't say I miss it a bit.

[whereagles]

Good thing upping those ranges 2 pts 3rd seat. That's very good strategy playing light-feather openings.

[Free]

Jimmy:

 

1) I want a natural 1♦ opening, that's why I sacrifice the 'always' 5+♥ and I use the 2♣ this way.

2) I want to play 5-card Majors (at least 90% of the time being 5+ cards)

3) I DON'T want a 2-way or more 1♣ opening!

4) I want 2♦+ free for preemptive openings :D

5) If there was a possibility to free up the 2♣ opening without violating any of the above points mentioned, feel free to show it :D Then I'd find 1♦ showing 3+♦ acceptable, but I still want to be able to ask entire shape as well!

6) I want FULL relaystructure after every opening

 

Opening balanced hands with 10 HCP isn't my main purpose at the moment B)

 

And how would you play this 2♦ opening??

 

About the 2♣ opening:

 

Yes, some love it, some hate it. I personally like it, however I prefer it as always showing 6+♣ - helps the preemptive support even more. In this opening-structure and with the designgoals, I think it's quite impossible :(

 

Whereagles:

 

Tnx, I learned that from MOSCITO ;) But the latest 3rd seat openings me and Richard had were still light as I remember them - we know p won't go anywhere :D

[mikestar]

I am a strong advocate of "Real Diamond Precision". I believe that the losses on 5C-4M hands are substantitally less than the losses from the nebulous 2D.

 

Precison 2D uses up a valuable bid for your preemptive sysatem and is very infrequent. It also requires you to go to the three level when the fit is in clubs, vs passing 2C. In any case 4+ and usually 5+ D is more precise than 3+ D and what do you open on 4M-2oM-2D-5C?

 

Real Diamond Precision has two losing bids (1C due to frequent intervention, 2C due to level), Nebulous 1D Precision loses less on 2C but takes a bath on 1D. This is a terrible tradeoff as a limited opening should be a big gainer over its 2/1 equivalent.

 

Looked at the other way, Neb Prec has two winning bids: Limited 1H and 1S. RDP has three, as 1D will also be a winnier.

[jtfanclub]

4) I want 2♦+ free for preemptive openings ;)

Blech.

 

Well, OK, you're going to tell me that they mean something I don't expect and I'll be impressed, but first thought is...blech.

 

If you're going to open 9 counts with mild distribution (like 6322) at the 1 level, your pre-empts must be seriously crappy. At least with the crap that people open with 2M now, there exists the possibility that opener has a 6 card 10 count, which means that you can't just pull out the red cards and use them until you're out of them, then borrow your neighbor's.

 

And third hand...your partner has almost certainly less than 10 a ten count, you have at most an 8 count, when you're vulnerable, your opponents must be licking their chops.

 

So, what did I miss?

[pbleighton]

"I am a strong advocate of "Real Diamond Precision". I believe that the losses on 5C-4M hands are substantitally less than the losses from the nebulous 2D.

 

Precison 2D uses up a valuable bid for your preemptive sysatem and is very infrequent."

 

Do you open 4-4-1-4 hands 1H then?

 

Peter

[Free]

Hmmm, somewhere you have a good point. In 3rd seat it might be usefull to use the 2♦ bid as constructive.

In 1st and 2nd hand however, preemptive structures can be VERY efficient! To give you an example:

 

Sound preempts:

2♦ = mini-multi

2M = Muiderberg

 

Frelling 2's (espessially 2♦ imo):

2♦ = 4+♦ & 4+M

2♥ = 4+♥ & (4+♠/5+♣)

2♠ = 6+♠ or (4+♠ & 5+♣)

 

Lorenzo 2's (my favorite - REAL GARBAGE):

2X = 0-7HCP, 4+X (Majors-first style ;) )

[hrothgar]

it does free up 2C (which is almost as hated in precision as 1D)...

Really? 2C openings are my second favorite opening in Precision, right behind 1NT. When we have game, it's easy to find. When we don't, it's usually very difficult for opponents. It's a perfect pre-empt when responder is weak, because opponents usually don't have the tools to explore game properly, while the clubs are long enough to sit after an X.

 

Do most people find otherwise?

Conventional wisdom among system designers holds that 2♣ = 6+ Clubs OR 5 Clubs and a 4 card major is a big loser. As I recall, most studies show that this is one of the worst performing bids in both Precision and Polish club.

[hrothgar]

Tnx, I learned that from MOSCITO ;) But the latest 3rd seat openings me and Richard had were still light as I remember them - we know p won't go anywhere :(

I actually prefer reasonably sound openings in 3rd seat as well...

[luke warm]

1) I want a natural 1♦ opening, that's why I sacrifice the 'always' 5+♥ and I use the 2♣ this way.

2) I want to play 5-card Majors (at least 90% of the time being 5+ cards)

3) I DON'T want a 2-way or more 1♣ opening!

4) I want 2♦+ free for preemptive openings  ;) 

5) If there was a possibility to free up the 2♣ opening without violating any of the above points mentioned, feel free to show it  :(  Then I'd find 1♦ showing 3+♦ acceptable, but I still want to be able to ask entire shape as well!

6) I want FULL relaystructure after every opening

 

And how would you play this 2♦ opening??

ok, it seems you have 2 firm rules: 1D must show a real suit and 1C must have only one meaning

 

i only see one way to free up 2C given the 1D restriction... so you have to decide which is more important (and i think you already have)... if you don't dislike 2 way bids, can 2C be either 1) 10-14 roman OR 2) 4+ diamonds and 5+ clubs? if this is the case, 1D can still be 'natural' while not promising more than 3 clubs... that means you probably need 2NT to show the minors with more diamonds than clubs (5/4 or 6/5(4) or something)

 

the 2C responses could be something like, 2D is "if you're 4+/5+, i prefer diamonds," 2H asks what you have... 2S says "weak roman, minor shortness;" 2NT says "weak roman, major shortness;" 3C says 4+D/5+C... since you presently use 2C as 6+, why not just bite the bullet and open 3C with that?

 

using 2D as weak 2 in major OR 15+ roman OR 20-21 balanced means pard bids as he does now over multi... with weakness, he bids as if you have a weak 2... if he bids 2NT, 3C can show strong roman, black suit shortness; 3D strong roman, red suit shortness; 3H heart preempt, 3S spade preempt, 3NT as 20-21 balanced.. you can even reverse some of these if you want partner to declare.... he'd not bid 2NT unless he thought there was some play for game, imo

 

i haven't really thought about the 2C/D response structure too much, but maybe variations on the above can work

 

on the major side, bergen only makes sense if your 1M bids are at least 11 points... otherwise you have to tinker with 'what is a limit raise? a constructive raise?' too much... and 1M/2NT, instead of splinter, can either be flat 13-15 or regular jacoby... you can use the under jumpshift to show weak splinter (7/8-11) and over j/s to show stronger splinter.. this doesn't affect bergen, the bids can easily be tweaked

 

the truth is, you're much better prepared than most to design this (you and richard) since you two already play strong club with relay bids...

 

i'm sure there are holes in there in a lot of places, but remember you've been toying with this longer than me... i do like the concept tho, so pls keep me posted...

[hrothgar]

the truth is, you're much better prepared than most to design this (you and richard) since you two already play strong club with relay bids...

Methinks that this is for use with another partner. I'm pretty satisfied with the current state of MOSCITO and really dislike combining Strong Club with 5 card majors.

[luke warm]

if moscito didn't make my mind seize up like an unlubricated pump, i'd give it a shot... but since i do have a little experience with precison, for some reason it seems different

[Free]

Yes, it's to play at my local club, and to avoid people complaining and whining all the time about the transfer openings and stuff... I know it's inferior to MOSCITO, but this uses lots of stuff from MOSCITO, so it might be a stage between playing natural and the real artificial system, who knows... The guy is young, we have time ;)

[mikestar]

... Do you open 4-4-1-4 hands 1H then?

 

Absolutely--this hand type occurrs only 3/4 of 1% of the time. Also you can reduce the frequency further by passing any doubtful minimums. This is so much less frequent than a nebulous 1D that it doesn't cause problems to any great degree. Partner assumes 1H shows 5 and bids accordingly. Once in a great while you end up playing in 2H on a 4-3 fit after 1H-2H when responder had four spades. In a regular partnership, 1H-1N-2C-2H-2S can show 4-4-1-4 allowing us to avoid the 4-2 heart fit. (This sequecne has no natural meaning--with 4-5 majors and a good hand I'd bid 2S directly over 1N, with a minimum I'm content to pass 2H.

 

A good book illustrationg this type of Precision is Rick Brown's Natural Precision.