Phil Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 1S - 1N2D - 3C 3H is? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 The impossible 3H?Good club raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Need stopper for 3N. Presumably Axxxx x Axxx AKx or the like. Bidding over this 3C is extremely rare obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Impossible. The two plausible meanings to me are a try for a 3nt game or a try for a 5♣ game, but I don't think this bid should exist. Maybe something like AQxxx x Axxx AKx? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I give up 3c as a weak hand with long clubs so 3c is a solid invite with long clubs for me. I grant a somewhat rare bid. With a weak hand with long clubs I will assume the opp bid something long ago. 3h is an even rarer bid. Given that responder has some very unbalanced hand with long clubs....3h is a slam try in clubs. I can live with all of the examples given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Pard thought it was a good club raise with probable heart shortness. His other regular pard passed with x xxxx Ax KT9xxx thinking he was patterning out. 3♥ was not a success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 As big a fan of patterning out as I am, this aint the time. Agree with Mike777 that 1NT (F), then 3C should be 10-12 with a six-bagger, not the weaker hands with clubs. (Many on these fora disagree.) Within that context (invitational sequence), opener can pattern out with 3NT/3♣ or can pass 3c. 3H would be, as stated by JLO, a probe for 3NT without heart cards. It is not as rare an occurrence if 3C is invitational rather than crud. Getting to some kind of perfect fit slam after a non JS by opener and a non GF by responder is possible, but too remote to worry about. It still could happen though by inference on the start given by the OP and Justin's example hand (AXXXX X AXXX AKX) or something similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 As big a fan of patterning out as I am, this aint the time. Agree with Mike777 that 1NT (F), then 3C should be 10-12 with a six-bagger, not the weaker hands with clubs. (Many on these fora disagree.) Within that context (invitational sequence), opener can pattern out with 3NT/3♣ or can pass 3c. 3H would be, as stated by JLO, a probe for 3NT without heart cards. It is not as rare an occurrence if 3C is invitational rather than crud. Getting to some kind of perfect fit slam after a non JS by opener and a non GF by responder is possible, but too remote to worry about. It still could happen though by inference on the start given by the OP and Justin's example hand (AXXXX X AXXX AKX) or something similar. Read an article the other day, (may even have been on Bridge Winners), in which it was suggested that 1M 3m is best played as invit with a goodish 6 carder, so that 1M 1NT(F)2? 3m shows the 6+ weak hand. This seems like a sensible idea, and I know that Pepsi Cola played it that way. I would play Phil's bid as looking for a H stopper for thrunt - similar hands to those posted above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Read an article the other day, (may even have been on Bridge Winners), in which it was suggested that 1M 3m is best played as invit with a goodish 6 carder.... I have been playing it this way for over a decade now :) I love it. (with all my pds, including the p/u pds in bbo :P ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurpoa Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 1S - 1N2D - 3C 3H is? Thanks. Playing BWS2001Defaults, there is no doubt: 3♥ is natural: opener has a 5♠-4♥-4♦ (and I guess, not to weakish: 13+-14-15H, else would pass 3♣). What is impossible to that ! Besides, why should it not be like that.... And I believe that playing SAYC, it is the same: in SAYC there is no such thing as a 4thcolor by opener. All this said, I believe that you should discuss and agree this with partner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 If 3♣ is 6-9 then this is impossible bid with 5143 or alike, but if 3♣ is 10-12 then something like half stopper comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Playing BWS2001Defaults, there is no doubt: 3♥ is natural: opener has a 5♠-4♥-4♦ (and I guess, not to weakish: 13+-14-15H, else would pass 3♣). What is impossible to that ! The reason why you disagree with everyone on this post is because everyone rebids 2♥ with 5440 BTW, what is standard rebid with 5044? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 We have not hijacked with the debate on whether 3C/1M or 3C after forcing NT should be the stronger bid ---because it bears on what 3H means in the OP. 3C direct with the weaker hand (6-9) gets the message across early, and there is a higher likelyhood that fourth chair will have wanted to bid at the 2-level. Responder will not have two-cards in opener's major. With the invite-range hand, responder is more likely to be interested in opener's rebid to the forcing NT, less likely to beget interference. This debate is not new; 10-12 vs. 6-9 was disagreed on by 2/1 players back in the 70's. Certainly the opinions of Pepsi and others should carry more weight than those of us average blokes. But sometimes a different style is more suitable for one's overall system. The Bergen people don't have the choice, they have to just pick one or the other meaning because a direct 3m is one of the many ways of showing a fit for the major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Pretty sure this partnership doesn't plays 1M - 3m as invitational. If you are curious, its a mini-splinter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 BTW, what is standard rebid with 5044? 2C unless strong enough to bid again over a minimum bid (like a preference). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 If 3♣ is 6-9 then this is impossible bid with 5143 or alike, but if 3♣ is 10-12 then something like half stopper comes to mind. Why is it impossible ? Look at the example Justin posted, and give pd 6 or 7♣ headed by Q and a side K or QJx ♥! What does hcps have anything to do with this ? Since when did hcps have anything to do with when we have AKx or alike holding in pd's known long suit + 2 side aces + a stiff ? When u have AKx in ♣, that makes it more likely that he has 7 ♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Playing BWS2001Defaults, there is no doubt: 3♥ is natural: opener has a 5♠-4♥-4♦ (and I guess, not to weakish: 13+-14-15H, else would pass 3♣). What is impossible to that ! Besides, why should it not be like that.... And I believe that playing SAYC, it is the same: in SAYC there is no such thing as a 4thcolor by opener. All this said, I believe that you should discuss and agree this with partner. Why would it not be like that? Because anyone who has played bridge for more than one week would bid the Heart suit rather than the D suit with that shape to find a possible 4-4 Heart fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurpoa Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 The reason why you disagree with everyone on this post is because everyone rebids 2♥ with 5440 BTW, what is standard rebid with 5044? Right....with any 5 4 4, always rebid your lowest 4card. As said, naming the other color later, is natural (playing BWS2001Defaults or SAYC). And I agree, you can give all kind of meanings to that 3H bid (I like: half a stopper). But this would need agreement with your partner. Anyway make sure, you agree with your partner on the meaning of those 4th-suit sequences. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Since this is under the "SAYC and 2/1 Discussion" topic... does it make a difference which of those two systems is being played? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurpoa Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Why would it not be like that? Because anyone who has played bridge for more than one week would bid the Heart suit rather than the D suit with that shape to find a possible 4-4 Heart fit. You have a rather good point there... Rebidding ♥ will ensure finding the ♥ fit. And if you agree with partner that on any 5♠-4♥ hands you rebid ♥, it certainly is not a bad agreement, but it should be discussed. But doing it like that, you must be aware that there are also I few disavantages: 1. A 4♥ contract after this sequence is anyway rather improbable (not impossible), and if partner rebids 3♥ (which he should do, on 8HP (or more)), you might already be one too high.2. You miss the save haven of a 2 or 3 ♦ contract in a 4-4 fit. It is all a question of bidding style, and I do not want to judge too much. I was only giving my understanding of what is written down in the SAYC booklet or in the BWStandard.I would be happy to hear other real arguments (that is why I am on this forum) and broaden my understanding of BWS2001. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurpoa Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Since this is under the "SAYC and 2/1 Discussion" topic... does it make a difference which of those two systems is being played? No , no difference. But there are many versions of 2/1 around. I was referring to BWS2001, and other versions might have specific agreement on this 4th suit sequence. In BWS2001, it is by default natural. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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