What's partner looking for ?

[sathyab]

[hv=pc=n&w=sk83hq82da9765ck4&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=1dp1hp1np2dp(art%20GF)2hp3cp3sp4np5cp5dp6cp6dp]133|200|2D art GF playing 2-way CB; 5C 1 Key for Hearts; 6C Trump Q + CK[/hv]

 

It's MatchPoints. Thanks to your early Spade cue-bid, partner knows every high card in your hand with the possible exception of a side suit Queen.

[JLOGIC]

Dammit I wrote out like a 6 paragraph response to this and then my browser crashed :(:( Basic answer was not to bid it but the H8 might be the nuts.

 

Also, a lot depends if partner can be 5-5 or not. I was assuming he could, but if he had a different way to bid 5-5 over 1N pls tell us.

 

I think this hand is very interesting.

[sathyab]

Dammit I wrote out like a 6 paragraph response to this and then my browser crashed :(:( Basic answer was not to bid it but the H8 might be the nuts.

 

Also, a lot depends if partner can be 5-5 or not. I was assuming he could, but if he had a different way to bid 5-5 over 1N pls tell us.

 

I think this hand is very interesting.

 

3♣ over 1nt would have showed 5-5 (2nt being the way to sign off on 3).

[JLOGIC]

Ok, well that is important. Partner should have the DK or the SQ and 5-4 then.

 

AQx AKJxx x Axxx is not a good grand at all. The HT and H9 become important though. AKJTx is a very good grand. Should partner be trying for 7 with this hand? KQx of clubs with us and 3343 is not a good grand, so maybe not. However a doubleton club with a heart spot is good, especially if we are 4342 (and then if we have the spade jack...).

 

Partner would DEFINITELY try for grand with AQx AKJxx x AJxx, and that helps our cause since the CQ might come down. However, what about AQx AKxxx x AJxx. Now if we have the CQ or the HQJ, grand is quite good, so he will try with that hand. But with our actual hand, grand is not good at all. If you add in the HT we have more play though. Maybe with no heart spot, partner should not try.

 

Then we have some Ax AKJxx Kx Axxx type hands. Now either minor suit queen is good for partner, and our 5th diamond might become useful. Once again the HT and H9 become really important cards.

 

I don't really know but it still feels like the H8 is barely enough. With Q32 I would not bid it. Grand is just so good opposite AKJ9x or AKJTx and Axxx of clubs that it is hard not to bid it.

[Fluffy]

I feel a bit ashamed that justin is talking about the importance of heart 8, while I want to ask: when did we set hearts as trumps?

[mike777]

I feel a bit ashamed that justin is talking about the importance of heart 8, while I want to ask: when did we set hearts as trumps?

 

 

ditto...I would not take 3c as a cuebid trying for a heart slam; rather just looking for the best game at this point. I would take 3h as a slam try after 2h. I would have rebid 3nt over 3c.

 

Maybe:

xx...AKJx...Jxx...AQJx

[JLOGIC]

I feel a bit ashamed that justin is talking about the importance of heart 8, while I want to ask: when did we set hearts as trumps?

 

3C to me promises 5 hearts. I have no bid to describe 4 hearts and 5 clubs since that hand bids 2C over 1D. So partner showed 5 hearts, I showed 3 hearts, and that gives us a heart fit and makes 4N and everything after keycard for hearts.

 

If that is not enough, it is clearly stated in the OP:

 

2D art GF playing 2-way CB; 5C 1 Key for Hearts; 6C Trump Q + CK

[JLOGIC]

ditto...I would not take 3c as a cuebid trying for a heart slam; rather just looking for the best game at this point. I would take 3h as a slam try after 2h. I would have rebid 3nt over 3c.

 

Maybe:

xx...AKJx...Jxx...AQJx

 

Can this hand not bid 2N? Obviously 2D followed by 2N denies 5 hearts and is still looking for something, either slam or a stopper in a black suit is likely. Anyways, surely despite what you feel the auction should mean, you would figure out what was going on when partner bid 4N then 5D then 6D?

 

And failing that, you could always read the OP, as the OP sets the context of the auction:

 

2D art GF playing 2-way CB; 5C 1 Key for Hearts; 6C Trump Q + CK

[sathyab]

Ok, well that is important. Partner should have the DK or the SQ and 5-4 then.

 

AQx AKJxx x Axxx is not a good grand at all. The HT and H9 become important though. AKJTx is a very good grand. Should partner be trying for 7 with this hand? KQx of clubs with us and 3343 is not a good grand, so maybe not. However a doubleton club with a heart spot is good, especially if we are 4342 (and then if we have the spade jack...).

 

Partner would DEFINITELY try for grand with AQx AKJxx x AJxx, and that helps our cause since the CQ might come down. However, what about AQx AKxxx x AJxx. Now if we have the CQ or the HQJ, grand is quite good, so he will try with that hand. But with our actual hand, grand is not good at all. If you add in the HT we have more play though. Maybe with no heart spot, partner should not try.

 

Then we have some Ax AKJxx Kx Axxx type hands. Now either minor suit queen is good for partner, and our 5th diamond might become useful. Once again the HT and H9 become really important cards.

 

I don't really know but it still feels like the H8 is barely enough. With Q32 I would not bid it. Grand is just so good opposite AKJ9x or AKJTx and Axxx of clubs that it is hard not to bid it.

 

Not sure if partner should be trying for a grand with A AKJxxx JT AJxx, if 6D is interpreted as looking for any max, as it most likely would be interpreted without prior discussion. But if it can be narrowed down to looking for help in the second suit, then it may be okay.

 

I wish there was a way to launch into SSA (Specific Suit Asking). But that needs a lot of work: may be opener should respond 5s over 5d in spite of having shown the Spade K earlier, for now we can create two sequences 5s-5nt-6c-6d and 5s-6c, with the latter being a good candidate for SSA in clubs. But there's not enough room for all the SSA responses when hearts are trumps (I checked all the examples in Kantar's book, he cleverly avoids it !) following a Queen-asking response. So it requires more engineering.

[JLOGIC]

6D shows all the keycards, and interest in grand opposite our possible hands, without a grand slam force. We know that partner is very likely x5x4 without a void. Partner knows that we have 3 hearts, at most 14 HCP, and A K K Q, and possible shapes of 4342, 3352, 3343. That is a lot of information, and it basically ends up being like a logic puzzle. I don't think it needs to say anything more specific than that, that is a fine line, and we should be able to make good decisions based on that.

 

If we bid 7 with Kxx Qxx AQxx Kxx "because we have a max" based on that information, then we are just terrible at bridge, it has nothing to do with agreements. Yeah partner could have KJ doubleton of diamonds but it is still terrible.

 

Yes, we cannot be completely accurate because we suffer from not having enough room, but we can still make very good probabilistic decisions. Playing kickback is very useful if you can make good use of the extra room in auctions like this, but that requires good agreements.

[Fluffy]

3C to me promises 5 hearts. I have no bid to describe 4 hearts and 5 clubs since that hand bids 2C over 1D. So partner showed 5 hearts, I showed 3 hearts, and that gives us a heart fit and makes 4N and everything after keycard for hearts.

 

If that is not enough, it is clearly stated in the OP:

I have to make more lenghty posts, its obvious (to me at least) that partner is 5-4, but my problem is, how does partner know we aren't 2344, where club slams will be better?, why did we bid 3♠ instead of 3♦ or 3♥?

 

This doesn't mean that OP had a missunderstanding, I trust his system for never worrying about finding side strains after a major fit is stablished, but for me at least the bidding would not be the same.

[cherdano]

I have to make more lenghty posts, its obvious (to me at least) that partner is 5-4, but my problem is, how does partner know we aren't 2344, where club slams will be better?, why did we bid 3♠ instead of 3♦ or 3♥?

With 2344, we would raise clubs? 3♣ is a natural slam try for hearts (ok, could still be COG at that point, but...), and 3♠ is a cuebid for hearts.

[gnasher]

What would 3NT have meant after 3♠?

 

If partner had bid that, we could have shown our ♣K with 4♣. When he later asked for the queen of trumps, we could bid 5NT, denying ♣Q or ♦K, but not completely ruling out grand slam. Now he would still have just enough room to tell us what he was actually interested in.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

The way the auction has gone, Responder still doesn't know about the ♦ K.

6D is a 2nd K-ask.

 

Replies:

6H = no dK or singleton ( the case here; and obviously no singleton with the 1D open )

6NT = dK

7D = dKQ

7H = singleton Diam

 

Responder could have something like:

A x    A K J x x    Q x    A Q x x

 

...hoping Opener is something like:

K x x    Q x x    A K x x x    K x

 

... and can count to 13 tricks if opener has the ♦K

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Note how the auction becomes clearer if Opener uses 4S! as kickback RKC when Hts are trump:

 

1D - 1H

1NT - 2D! ( artificial GF )

2H ( 3h) - 3C

3D - 3S

4C - 4S! ( kickback RKC for Hts )

4NT( 1/4) - 5C! ( hQ-ask)

5S ( hQ + sK, denies dK ) - 5NT ( 2nd K-ask )

6C ( cK ) - 6D! ( NOW this must be a dQ-ask !! since all the outside K's are accounted for )

 

However, if Responder doesn't have the ♦K either, then he will just sign off in 6H after 5S.

[Fluffy]

Don... judgement over conventions, partner won't ask us for singleton diamond when we open 1♦.

 

PArtner won't ask us for 1NT opening, when we open 1♦ (to make it clear for you, ♦K in our hands adds to 15 HCP wich is a 1NT opening).

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Don... judgement over conventions, partner won't ask us for singleton diamond when we open 1♦.

 

PArtner won't ask us for 1NT opening, when we open 1♦ (to make it clear for you, ♦K in our hands adds to 15 HCP wich is a 1NT opening).

Ok.OK... so maybe it is an unbalanced 15.... hence the 1D open.

 

I still say 6D! = 2nd K-ask ( ignore the singleton option .... I just included it in the option definitions ).

[wyman]

Ok.OK... so maybe it is an unbalanced 15.... hence the 1D open.

 

I still say 6D! = 2nd K-ask ( ignore the singleton option .... I just included it in the option definitions ).

 

24,

 

Is there a shape and a 15-count consistent with this bidding? West rebid 1N, after all.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

24,

 

Is there a shape and a 15-count consistent with this bidding? West rebid 1N, after all.

Ok, I yield.

 

If Opener can't have any more than a balanced 14 for his bidding, then he only has room for 2 more hcp.

Thus, 6D! asks for either the ♦Q or ♠Q or ♣J because

I'm putting Responder on:

A x    A K J T x    K x    A Q x x

 

and either one of those cards yields 13 tricks.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

sathyab....

 

What was Responder's hand ?

[sathyab]

sathyab....

 

What was Responder's hand ?

 

♠A ♥AKJxxx ♦JT ♣AJxx

 

As you can see you don't make 7♥ with any Max; it requires opener to have either the ♣Q or ♣Kx.

[kenrexford]

I echo another post here. Figuring out what Responder has is extremely difficult, because he made a weird decision and because we don't know the entire cuebidding style. After cuebidding 3♣ and hearing a 3♠ cue from Opener, Responder skipped over an entire level of possible information exchange to hit us with RKCB and then ends the sequence with a grand slam last train call.

 

Assuming a logical partner, and assuming a fairly reasonable set of agreements, there are a few things that we should (IMO) expect.

 

(1) Partner knows that we cannot have the diamond King or Queen, because we did not cuebid 3♦ over his 3♣ call.

(2) Partner should not be interested in the club Queen (despite the actual hand) because he could have enabled a 4♣ cuebid (assuming serious 3NT), which would have converted out 6♣ call in the ensuing sequence from a King-show to a Queen-show. Hence, he cannot (logically) want that card.

(3) Partner knows our hearts precisely.

 

So, we get to spades. This is interesting. In theory, we now know (by virtue of the grand try) that partner must be looking at the spade Ace. Hence, we also know that partner knows from our 3♠ cue that we have the spade King. hence, it initially seems like we could have bid 5♠ after 5♦ to show the spade QUEEN. However, this is flawed, as 5♦ could have simply been a queen-check for the small slam purposes, such that partner might not have the spade Ace at that time.

 

This all seems to suggest that the only critical card that we might have is the spade Queen, and there is no other way tp ask about this except this specific auction and this specific call at this point.

 

Therefore, IMO the 6♦ call asks me to bid the grand if I have the spade Queen. Of course, this is all conditioned on a lot of assumptions as to agreements up to this point and upon a partner who thinks the same way that I do.

[gnasher]

(2) Partner should not be interested in the club Queen (despite the actual hand) because he could have enabled a 4♣ cuebid (assuming serious 3NT)

He can bid 3NT even if we play non-serious 3NT. If I sign off over that, he can still bid RKCB, and he's at least gained the information that I don't like my hand much.