Who says 1 diamond overcall has no effect on opponents.

[MrAce]

[hv=pc=n&w=s2ha72dakq2caqt32&e=sa543hqjt3d7ckj84&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1c1ddppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Team game, 1♦ doubled was down 2 for +300 to EW, while other table played 6♣ and claimed after ♥ finesse failed. However at the table where slam was reached, EW bid without a ♦ overcall.

 

- How would u bid it ?

 

- If u believe 1♦ overcall matters, do u think it is the North player's fault who did not overcall with KQx Kx JTxxxx xx in other room ?

 

-What would u bid by West, if u disagree with his pass ?

[JLOGIC]

East made a negative double with 4-4 in the majors, showing 4-4 in the majors. How could one blame him? West passed a takeout X at the 1 level with 4 trumps... I mean...lol. If west wants to gamble good for him but it's on him when it doesn't work, east was just bidding his hand.

 

Personally I think wests pass is hopeless and he got what he deserved, and I'd be embarrassed to blame my partner for this result if I was west.

[mtvesuvius]

Pass is terrible and got what it deserved.

 

All the blame to West, East had his (only) bid.

[MrAce]

East made a negative double with 4-4 in the majors, showing 4-4 in the majors. How could one blame him? West passed a takeout X at the 1 level with 4 trumps... I mean...lol. If west wants to gamble good for him but it's on him when it doesn't work, east was just bidding his hand.

 

Personally I think wests pass is hopeless and he got what he deserved, and I'd be embarrassed to blame my partner for this result if I was west.

 

I edited the original questions after your reply, u are right about E having no fault with his bidding. But upto some experts i asked, that doesnt neccesarilly makes W in fault. Thats why i asked here. :)

[JLOGIC]

Passing 1D X could work out just fine. Your hand is strong enough that I would expect to be able to make a game very often. I would not be that surprised to learn I had a slam in clubs. I would also not expect to beat them more than 500 very often, LHO overcalled on a weak suit and presumably not that many HCP, I wouldn't be surprised if he had 6 diamonds. Sure AKQx is nice, but it's only 3 trump tricks at the end of the day, and if they have 6 diamonds they probably also have 3 trump tricks to begin with. I would be very worried about disaster scenarios like partner having JTxx xxxx x KJxx or something where we are cold for 3N, and they make 1D.

 

Yes it's possible a game goes down our way but not that likely, and it's also possible we can get them for 800 and have no slam. Those are our big win scenarios, and I view them as much less likely than getting an inadequate penalty vs our game, or us being cold for slam, or both.

 

I also don't really want LHO to run to 1S. This will help them lead/defend if we get to 3N later.

 

Basically I just view passing as a big gamble. Big gambles are not necessarily wrong in bridge, but I don't feel like this is a good spot. It's just so unilateral at a really early point in the auction, and I'm not convinced there's any edge in it at all.

 

That said, of course the passer is unlucky to catch a layout where you get 300 and are cold for slam, just as the passer would be lucky to catch partner with some hand where we got 800.

[JLOGIC]

Another point that is important to me at least is that when you DO have a big number it is usually when LHO has only 5 diamonds. I would expect him to always run with JTxxx, and I would expect him to likely have a good 4 card major (probably spades) since he has no HCP in diamonds and didn't make a takeout double. Yeah he could be 3253 or something (and even then when he redoubles it will be right). Anyways, my point is a lot of the time that pass is "right" LHO can profitably run. I would not sit for a double of 1S and would just bid 3N, in which case my upside has become even smaller on the pass.

[tolvyrj]

This could have been a great result in pairs where prd usually comes in with 13 cards in his hand...teams its bit greedy. Im going to make Nt in some level... lets say at least 2 level, i would have bid 2♦ and hope that prd wont pass it :lol: . then in his probable 2 of major i bid 3♣, which got to be forcing...wishful thinking, well a Reese said it...if prd passes now i have something to hold against him B-) .

Now all prd has to do is to understand a) im not intrested in majors and b) i have something else than minimum hand and yes...♣.

In pairs my regular prd would have bid 3♦ asking stopper in Nt, but since it teams he probaply bids 4♣...then follows 4♦by me and 4♠by prd, cues and now depending am i on the mood i bid RKCB or 6♣.

[aguahombre]

i would have bid 2♦ and hope that prd wont pass it :lol: ......

Now all prd has to do is to understand a) im not intrested in majors and b) i have something else than minimum hand and yes...♣.

 

He probably bids 4♣...then follows (onward to 6♣.)

 

I edited it to include the parts which make sense to me. Pard's neg double already showed his 4-4 major suit distribution, but not his strength or his minor(s) pattern.

 

So, 2D seems perfect as a rebid for opener. Responder then jumps in clubs to show extra strength and the nice fit. After that, 6C seems easy.

[MrAce]

Anyone to blame North in other room for not overcalling with KQx Kx JTxxxx xx and not putting the West at his tabel on test ?

[mtvesuvius]

I would overcall that but it's not some people's style. Regardless, "putting west to the test" here is silly. West's pass is too one-sided and will backfire very often.

[MrAce]

I would overcall that but it's not some people's style. Regardless, "putting west to the test" here is silly. West's pass is too one-sided and will backfire very often.

 

What would you bid as west if pass is out of question for you ? I insist on asking this because, even when not passed, the continuation may not get us to find the slam after that overcall, i just wanna know how would a pair handle this deal after 1♦ overcall and find their way to slam ? (of course i have an opinion how to bid, but i am not sure if i am being affected from the fact that i see both hands.)

[Cyberyeti]

This is yet another hand where I see somebody get a poor result after opening a short club (although it's not really the cause this time), having failed to find a club fit.

 

We bid 1♣(4+ cards)-(1♦)-2♣(inverted not denying 4M) and there is no problem.

 

If partner was 4423/4432, the big hand might have done the right thing, although I think I'd bid 3N over the X.

[gnasher]

What would you bid as west if pass is out of question for you ?

2NT.

[mtvesuvius]

What would you bid as west if pass is out of question for you ? I insist on asking this because, even when not passed, the continuation may not get us to find the slam after that overcall, i just wanna know how would a pair handle this deal after 1♦ overcall and find their way to slam ? (of course i have an opinion how to bid, but i am not sure if i am being affected from the fact that i see both hands.)

I think probably 2♦, which should be extras without any clear direction.

 

East will bid 3♣, West will now get a bit excited, probably bidding 3♥, East now can bid 3♠, West 4♣ etc...

[dake50]

I prefer 2D Q-bid with East hand.

'Have majors AND C-fit.'

Now Neg-X always denies C-fit.

[aguahombre]

I think probably 2♦, which should be extras without any clear direction.

 

East will bid 3♣, West will now get a bit excited, probably bidding 3♥, East now can bid 3♠, West 4♣ etc...

 

Since your auction is exactly as if the overcall had not occurred, did 3♣ show the extra strength that the responder had? (Where 2M would have been a weak Leben-type bid in context of the known 4-4 in the majors?).

 

If so, it seems great. If not, I think I would have to bid 4♣ instead of 3 with the East hand/2D.

[rhm]

I think there are a couple of inferences available to West:

 

- It is apparent to overcaller that he was bidding without any tops in his suit so is likely to have extra length for his overcall.

- opponents are not vulnerable and probably have a ♠ fit anyway

- West is strong enough to insist on game opposite a negative double, which means a successful double will require you to take at least 9 tricks. You have 5. Are you confident to find another 4 tricks?

- Since there are at least 10 ♦s between you and overcaller with partner being likely short in ♦ and opponents have a probable ♠ fit, are you surprised that your side has a fit in ♣?

 

Are you still convinced passing the negative double is a serious option?

 

For the record I believe 2♦ (not an immediate 2NT) is fairly obvious. This is a good hand for a suit contract. If partner bids ♣ or ♥, I am interested.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[OleBerg]

I can only echo other posters comments about the pass.

 

I would definitely overcall 1♦ (and I'd rather bid 2♦ than pass).

 

After partners negative double, I'd bid 2♦. And I'm not letting partner off the hook below 3NT. 2NT is a big misunderstanding.

[gszes]

1c 1d x p

2d p 3c p

3d p 5c p

6c

[gnasher]

Poor East. He picks up KJ10x QJxx x xxxx, and things start well for him: he gets to make a negative double of 1♦, showing most of his shape in one go. Then partner bids a game-forcing 2♦, which is nice, especially as responder has another easy call with 3♣. Now opener bids 3♦, presumably asking for a diamond stop. East has a fair hand for the bidding so far - four-card support and a singleton diamond, opposite what appears to be weak length. Still, he knows his partner is a bit of an overbidder, so instead of 4♦, which his hand is worth, he jumps to 5♣ to try to slow things down a bit. Then partner self-raises to 6♣ anyway. That drifts a couple off after a spade to the ace and a heart return, but maybe it doesn't matter - 5♣ might have gone down on the same defence. Then somebody wonders whether 3NT might have made.

 

In another world, East has AKxx Qxxx x xxxx, and sees the same pleasant start to the auction, but after 3♣ opener bids 3♥, which presumably sets hearts as trumps. East's hand has plusses and minuses, but it seems reasonable to bid 3♠. Over that, opener bids a serious 4♣. The weak clubs are a slight worry, but slam is good opposite x AKxx xxx AKQxx, and we're still below game, so East cue-bids 4♦. Now opener bids Keycard and follows with 6♣. Luckily East knows that that's a place to play not a grand-slam try, so he passes. Sadly, the trumps don't come in for no loser, and 6♣ goes down again. Then somebody wonders whether 3NT might have made.

[JLOGIC]

Epic gnasher post.

 

Anyways, I think if you bid 2D and partner bid 3C the correct bid is 3N. Given that you have a diamond stopper and no 4 card major, partner knows 2D was based on a GF hand with long clubs, and can act accordingly. 2D should be looked at as:

 

1) GF with a major

2) GF with long clubs

3) 18-19 balanced with no diamond stopper.

[MrAce]

The player who passed 1♦ at the table was a famous worldclass player (Jens Auken). And he is not the only one among famous worldclass players who replied that they would pass. This was a hand from JEC match.

 

Open room, North did not overcall 1 or 2 ♦ and opponents found the slam pretty easy. The player who did not overcall in open room was L. Lauria from Italy. We will never know what would West bid in open room had he faced the same auction. I thought that was an interesting board which was played at 1 level in one room and slam in other one. :)

[gszes]

As poor E stares at yet another motley collection of cards KJTx QJxx x xxxx , there is actually a brief

surge of optimism as this the best hand they have had in months. Surprise surprise P has actually opened

the bidding 1c (p only player in universe that seems to hold worse cards then E does) the opps might not

be able to bid a slam (for the umpteenth time today) Rho overcalls 1D and E happily X knowing that noone

could possibly fault them for using the bid on a hand which is practically out of a textbook. Lho pass and

P shocks (not with the expected 1h or 1s sign off try) but with an astounding 2d bid (somewhere in back

of our mind we remember this is a game force) YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY and even better with our rock gut

minimum hand we can now make yet another perfect bid of 3c. We are content and pleased that we have so

perfectly described our hand that we can now sit back relax and p should be able to place the contract.

 

Our realm of contentment is suddenly shattered as after pass by lho p now bids 3d and rho p again. BUT

we have already told P everthing about our hand dead minimum 4414 how can we possibly bid anything now??

P has a HUGE hand for this kind of bidding so we might be looking at a plus score instead of trying to

garner all of our imps/MP by holding down opps overtricks.

 

Breathe yes thats right dont panic P is a very thoughtful bidder and surely knows we can do something

intelligent in case we were dead minimum but WHAT. Surely jumping to 5c and wasting huge swathes

of bidding space to almost play slam cant be right (with a dead minimum) I doubt that would be right even

if I was 4405 instead of a much more plebian 4414.

 

We cant possibly bid 3N (surely P is not searching to see if we have the stiff dia A) because we lack either

the K or Q of diamonds in case P needs a partial stopper for 3n.

 

Hmmm in context bidding-----what about a major suit? P knows we cannot possibly have a 5+ card major suit since

we did not bid it over 2d so P will never mistake us for extra length----might they mistake a major suit for a cue

bid???? maybe maybe but they have shown us a monster hand and surely with a cue bid and extra values we could proceed

beyond 3n if p happens to bid it and p would then know our 3s bid was a cue bid. So which major do we choose?

Seems logical to choose the major we have most of our stuff in so we now bid 3s. P now bids 3n and we happily pass.

 

Even better as 3n makes and the hand is over P looks over at us and says well bid P very thoughtful of you to make a good bid and still keep all of our options open --- I knew you had it in you but next time with both majors stopped (having 4 small not a stop) bid 3h that way if I needed hearts stopped I can bid 3n and if I need spades stopped I can still bid 3s:)(BUT ill bet 10 bucks you at least thought about bidding 5c at one time thinking you might have a clue why I was bidding the way I was---be honest now).

[MrAce]

As poor E stares at yet another motley collection of cards KJTx QJxx x xxxx , there is actually a brief

surge of optimism as this the best hand they have had in months. Surprise surprise P has actually opened

the bidding 1c (p only player in universe that seems to hold worse cards then E does) the opps might not

be able to bid a slam (for the umpteenth time today) Rho overcalls 1D and E happily X knowing that noone

could possibly fault them for using the bid on a hand which is practically out of a textbook. Lho pass and

P shocks (not with the expected 1h or 1s sign off try) but with an astounding 2d bid (somewhere in back

of our mind we remember this is a game force) YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY and even better with our rock gut

minimum hand we can now make yet another perfect bid of 3c. We are content and pleased that we have so

perfectly described our hand that we can now sit back relax and p should be able to place the contract.

 

Our realm of contentment is suddenly shattered as after pass by lho p now bids 3d and rho p again. BUT

we have already told P everthing about our hand dead minimum 4414 how can we possibly bid anything now??

P has a HUGE hand for this kind of bidding so we might be looking at a plus score instead of trying to

garner all of our imps/MP by holding down opps overtricks.

 

Breathe yes thats right dont panic P is a very thoughtful bidder and surely knows we can do something

intelligent in case we were dead minimum but WHAT. Surely jumping to 5c and wasting huge swathes

of bidding space to almost play slam cant be right (with a dead minimum) I doubt that would be right even

if I was 4405 instead of a much more plebian 4414.

 

We cant possibly bid 3N (surely P is not searching to see if we have the stiff dia A) because we lack either

the K or Q of diamonds in case P needs a partial stopper for 3n.

 

Hmmm in context bidding-----what about a major suit? P knows we cannot possibly have a 5+ card major suit since

we did not bid it over 2d so P will never mistake us for extra length----might they mistake a major suit for a cue

bid???? maybe maybe but they have shown us a monster hand and surely with a cue bid and extra values we could proceed

beyond 3n if p happens to bid it and p would then know our 3s bid was a cue bid. So which major do we choose?

Seems logical to choose the major we have most of our stuff in so we now bid 3s. P now bids 3n and we happily pass.

 

Even better as 3n makes and the hand is over P looks over at us and says well bid P very thoughtful of you to make a good bid and still keep all of our options open --- I knew you had it in you but next time with both majors stopped (having 4 small not a stop) bid 3h that way if I needed hearts stopped I can bid 3n and if I need spades stopped I can still bid 3s:)(BUT ill bet 10 bucks you at least thought about bidding 5c at one time thinking you might have a clue why I was bidding the way I was---be honest now).

 

 

Fred may sue you for using excessive bandwidth. After all this is just a forum, not a free space to publish a book :P (joke m8)

 

Gnasher ! I hold u accountable for this :D

[mtvesuvius]

He just wants up votes too.