ATB

[olien]

[hv=pc=n&s=s52ht62da8532ckj8&n=sakqjt74ha84dktc7&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1c(16+%2C%20artificial%2C%20forcing)2c(natural)2d(5+%21D%2C%20game%20force)3h(fit%20showing)3sp3n(not%20my%20choice%2C%20but%20call%20chosen)p4c(cue%20agreeing%20%21s)p4dp4np5c(1%20or%204)p6sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

What could have been done to avoid this and how should blame be assessed?

 

Also, what alternative auctions might be suggested in a natural context assuming south raised to 4!S instead of bidding 3NT. For the record, 5!S is cold once a !h lead is ducked, so reaching the 5-level is "safe" on this hand.

[dbsboy]

I think 4NT RKC was a bit too much, it is very likely that there would be a Club loser plus a Heart loser.

 

I would bid 4H (last train), and if partner had extras he would bid on.

[Free]

Agree with dbsboy, 4♥ last train lets partner evaluate. South didn't promisse a good suit and showed ♣ values, so there may be too many quick losers in ♥.

[Poky]

2♦ is suboptimal, a discouraging 3NT with KJx would be a much better choice.

After 4♣ our range is pretty wide, so, we should narrow it with a discouraging 4♠. Cuebidding invites problems.

 

Blame:

10% North

90% South

[Mbodell]

N 100%

 

I think N should pass 3nt and should not go past 4♠ so a 4♥ cue over 4♦. And unlike Poky I think a 4♦ cue is mandatory after partner with an unlimited hand has pulled our 3nt signoff.

 

If S bids 4♠ instead of 3nt N should pass (with a better hand S could cue on the way to 4♠).

 

I think 3nt is reasonable with the S hand and so is 4♠ over the 3♠ call and I wouldn't really fault either call.

[rhm]

Both overbid, but South is much more at fault in my opinion.

It is silly to play a cuebid of 4♦ mandatory in this sequence. Responder has never limited his hand and a cuebid of 4♦ should show a hand suitable for slam. Controls are important, but to make a contract tricks are even more so.

Responder is dead minimum and his ♣ values are wasted. His only useful value is the ace of ♦. If this is all North needs for slam he will bid slam anyway and the problem will be staying out of a grand.

All, who blame North, should explain how the bidding should go if South had ♦AQJxx instead of his actual ♦ holding.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[cherdano]

Both overbid, but South is much more at fault in my opinion.

It is silly to play a cuebid of 4♦ mandatory in this sequence. Responder has never limited his hand and a cuebid of 4♦ should show a hand suitable for slam. Controls are important, but to make a contract tricks are even more so.

Responder is dead minimum and his ♣ values are wasted. His only useful value is the ace of ♦. If this is all North needs for slam he will bid slam anyway and the problem will be staying out of a grand.

All, who blame North, should explain how the bidding should go if South had ♦AQJxx instead of his actual ♦ holding.

 

Rainer Herrmann

That's a very nice ♦J!

I completely agree that cuebidding 4♦ shows a working minimum, and with a hand that is now much worse than advertised, South should step on the brakes with 4♠.

Still, South did bid 3NT, so North should expect some club wastage. RKCB was a big overbid - especially as North already knows there won't be a lack of keycards in 6♠. He should bid 4♥, and make another try with 5♦ if he wants.

[the hog]

2D is about a king short of the bid, so south 90%. I would bid 4H rather than 4NT, so Nth 10%

[kayin801]

2D is about a king short of the bid, so south 90%. I would bid 4H rather than 4NT, so Nth 10%

 

South: This is a strong club auction so 2♦ is normal. 4♦ has to be mandatory since North knows South hse club wastage and could still have a monster looking for just one card. No blame there

 

North: I don't like 4♣ but I'm torn between 4♦ and 4♠ there. Hopefully if we bid 4♦ partner will realize his clubs are bad opposite either x or xx and despite having the fitting diamond will sign off in 4♠ with no heart honor.

[ArtK78]

Agree that 4♦ is mandatory with the South hand. Until South bid 3NT, both hands were UNlimited. But South did limit his hand with the 3NT call and, at the same time, South implied club cards which are valueless to North (unless they were Axx or better). When North moves over 3NT, South must show his diamond control. Change the North hand slightly to:

 

AKQJTxx

Ax

KQx

x

 

and all North needs for South to have is 5 diamonds to the Ace to make slam.

 

North overbid when he went past 4♠. If South had enough to make slam opposite the North hand, he would continue on his own over a 4♠ signoff by North.

 

100% of the blame to North.

Edited February 21, 2011 by ArtK78

[pooltuna]

Clearly an electronic voice muzzle needs to be installed on South with an external control viewing his choice of actions. He would have been electrically shocked at least twice and probably 3 times by the external control but he would have learned either to pass more or had his pain threshold substantially increased :)

 

EDIT: my earlier comments were based on not having a clue about the bidding system in use. But learned that clicking on the bids in the <sarcasm /on> oversized <sarcasm /off> bidding diagram shows information.

[mtvesuvius]

I agree with 3N by South here, he knows all the clubs are wasted, and doesn't want to excite partner if possible. IMO 4♠ is better in theory, but partner will move for slam on many hands that it's hopeless.

 

4♣ is a reasonable call by North, and I think 4♦ is pretty much mandatory. I don't agree with Keycarding now though, Last Train here is plenty... Partner's "heart values" won't be working, and partner's club values won't either. If slam is right, they should be able to move over last train.

[rhm]

Agree that 4♦ is mandatory with the South hand. Until South bid 3NT, both hands were limited. But South did limit his hand with the 3NT call and, at the same time, South implied club cards which are valueless to North (unless they were Axx or better). When North moves over 3NT, South must show his diamond control. Change the North hand slightly to:

 

AKQJTxx

Ax

KQx

x

 

and all North needs for South to have is 5 diamonds to the Ace to make slam.

 

North overbid when he went past 4♠. If South had enough to make slam opposite the North hand, he would continue on his own over a 4♠ signoff by North.

 

100% of the blame to North.

Really? So assume you hold as you suggest

 

♠AKQJTxx

♥Ax

♦KQx

♣x

 

and the bidding starts

 

1♣-(2♣)-2♦-(3♥)

3♠---3NT

4♣--4♠

 

What do you expect now your partner to have for having bid a game forcing 2♦?

Assume you would continue with 4NT to ask for aces, can 5♠ be in jeopardy?

And you still have not answered my question how the bidding should have gone if South had AQJxx in ♦ instead

 

Rainer Herrmann

[mtvesuvius]

South would clearly move over Last Train, Rainer. It's an easy game when you involve partner sometimes!

[rhm]

Agree that 4♦ is mandatory with the South hand. Until South bid 3NT, both hands were limited. But South did limit his hand with the 3NT call and, at the same time, South implied club cards which are valueless to North (unless they were Axx or better). When North moves over 3NT, South must show his diamond control. Change the North hand slightly to:

 

AKQJTxx

Ax

KQx

x

 

and all North needs for South to have is 5 diamonds to the Ace to make slam.

 

North overbid when he went past 4♠. If South had enough to make slam opposite the North hand, he would continue on his own over a 4♠ signoff by North.

 

100% of the blame to North.

Really? So assume you hold as you suggest

 

♠AKQJTxx

♥Ax

♦KQx

♣x

 

and the bidding starts

 

1♣-(2♣)-2♦-(3♥)

3♠---3NT

4♣---4♠

 

What do you expect now your partner to have for having bid a game forcing 2♦?

Assume you would continue with 4NT to ask for aces, can 5♠ be in jeopardy?

And you still have not answered my question how the bidding should have gone with the actual North hand if South had AQJxx in ♦ instead

 

Rainer Herrmann

[ArtK78]

Really? So assume you hold as you suggest

 

♠AKQJTxx

♥Ax

♦KQx

♣x

 

and the bidding starts

 

1♣-(2♣)-2♦-(3♥)

3♠---3NT

4♣---4♠

 

What do you expect now your partner to have for having bid a game forcing 2♦?

Assume you would continue with 4NT to ask for aces, can 5♠ be in jeopardy?

And you still have not answered my question how the bidding should have gone with the actual North hand if South had AQJxx in ♦ instead

 

Rainer Herrmann

There is no way that South can know that his diamonds are useful on this auction.

 

Perhaps North should bid 4♦ rather than 4♣ over 3NT.

 

Could 5♠ be in jeopardy on this auction? It is certainly unlikely. But South could have something like:

 

x

QTx

JT9xx

KQxx

[gszes]

You have to hate that 3s bid. There seems to be no reason why n has to bid 3s right away.

I think it is vastly better to pass 3h and wait and see what p wants to do.

Here s will x and n can now bid 3s (pass and pull) to show slam interest.

s now bids 3n (not to play they already said they cant bid 3n) but in an effort

to show a minimum and deny a decent dia suit (having a decent dia suit would qualify

as slam interest--decent should mean at least 5 cards 2 of top 3 honors)

 

opener is well placed now to stop in game and bid 4s because slam is difficult to visualize.

 

I hereby blame N 100% for premature spade bid.

[mtvesuvius]

You have to hate that 3s bid. There seems to be no reason why n has to bid 3s right away.

I think it is vastly better to pass 3h and wait and see what p wants to do.

Here s will x and n can now bid 3s (pass and pull) to show slam interest.

s now bids 3n (not to play they already said they cant bid 3n) but in an effort

to show a minimum and deny a decent dia suit (having a decent dia suit would qualify

as slam interest--decent should mean at least 5 cards 2 of top 3 honors)

 

opener is well placed now to stop in game and bid 4s because slam is difficult to visualize.

 

I hereby blame N 100% for premature spade bid.

Are you suggesting to wait until even later to bid our solid seven card suit? Not being able to bid it the first time is bad enough, but a second time?! I don't know about you, but given the chance, I like to bid my solid 7 card suits BEFORE THE FIVE LEVEL!

 

How is South's 3N not to play? Even if it were to go 3♥-p-p to South, there's no way 3N is right.

 

Ridiculousness.

[Bbradley62]

Agree that 4♦ is mandatory with the South hand. Until South bid 3NT, both hands were limited. But South did limit his hand with the 3NT call and, at the same time, South implied club cards which are valueless to North (unless they were Axx or better). When North moves over 3NT, South must show his diamond control. Change the North hand slightly to:

 

AKQJTxx

Ax

KQx

x

 

and all North needs for South to have is 5 diamonds to the Ace to make slam.

 

North overbid when he went past 4♠. If South had enough to make slam opposite the North hand, he would continue on his own over a 4♠ signoff by North.

 

100% of the blame to North.

Agree completely with this, except I think Art meant to say "{u}ntil South bid 3NT, both hands were unlimited. But South did limit his hand with the 3NT call..."

[rhm]

Agree completely with this, except I think Art meant to say "{u}ntil South bid 3NT, both hands were unlimited. But South did limit his hand with the 3NT call..."

 

Nonsense

I can see bidding more with around 14 HCP, but what is South supposed to bid with 11-12 or even 13 HCP?

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Bbradley62]

what is South supposed to bid with 11-12 or even 13 HCP?

Of course, that answer depends on his shape and what his 11-13 points are... but the one thing he is NOT to do is sign off in 3NT.

 

Out of curiosity: What would first bids of 3♣ or 3♦ by South have meant?

[mike777]

65% south for bidding 2d rather than 2nt and then cuebidding 4d rather than 4s.

15% north for not bidding 4h.

 

20% to both for not having better agreements when opp bid over strong club.

[rhm]

Of course, that answer depends on his shape and what his 11-13 points are... but the one thing he is NOT to do is sign off in 3NT.

 

Out of curiosity: What would first bids of 3♣ or 3♦ by South have meant?

 

Well 12 HCP with the same shape of course like this hand not with spade support or with a long solid ♦ suit.

 

If 2♦ is game forcing it has no upper limit and 3♦ would certainly show a weaker hand or do you expect it to be forcing to slam?

3♣ would deny a good suit of yourself worth mentioning, where you want the 1♣ opener to declare 3NT, not a different strength.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

EDIT: South has no business cuebidding with ♣K wasted, he should sing off with subminimum hand

 

North is plenty to try for slam, he only needs ♠xx ♥xx ♦AQxxx ♣K to have a decent chance.

[mtvesuvius]

When did North ever say he wanted to play diamonds?