What is your bid?

[skorchev]

You are North and your hand is

 

S A109xx

H Kxxx

D 109x

C K

 

The bidding is

 

W N E S

-- P 1D* 1H

2D ?

 

1D* - precision club (11-15 hcp, 1+ card)

1H - 8-15 hcp, 5+ cards

2D - natural, NF

 

Dealer: North Vul: EW Scoring: IMPs

 

You play team match in live, IMP scoring.

 

The system is 2/1.

 

 

Stefan

[inquiry]

I voted "other", but my bid would be 3♦. The reason I said other, is I don't separate between 2NT and 3♦ based upon the number of trumps.. but rather ont he offensive and defensive potential of the hand. Here, the heart king, four trumps, and singleton are offensvie, the three cards in diamonds, the club king and the spade ACE are defensive. It is a close call, and I could go 2NT or 3♦ on this hand. But since you defined 3♦ as SPECIFICALLY only 3 ♥'s I decided to vote other so I could explain how I use this bid. This is a betweener, and either bid could be right. But 3♦ has the advantage if they compete to 4[di[ and it is wrong for them to do so, your partner will know that and double them.

 

2♠ with four card support is out of the question, and should be forcing anyway (instead of non-forcing). 3♥ weak is HUGE underbid, 4♥ is denying that you have a living, breathing partner at the table, who when you provide with the accurate information, can make the right decision most of the time.

 

Ben

[luke warm]

ok, i'm north and i passed originally... btw i voted 3D, but i really want to know what 2 or 3S would be... do most play 3S as splinter for hearts, or is it possible for both 2 and 3S to show heart support with a spade suit? after all, i presumeably know how to open a weak 2 and i shoudln't have a hand strong enough to bid 2S after a pass

 

i honestly prefer a spade bid, as a lead directer promising hearts, but i'm not sure how most would take that

[jtfanclub]

You are North and your hand is

 

S A109xx

H Kxxx

D 109x

C K

 

The bidding is

 

W N E S

-- P 1D* 1H

2D ?

 

1D* - precision club (11-15 hcp, 1+ card)

1H - 8-15 hcp, 5+ cards

2D - natural, NF

 

Dealer: North Vul: EW Scoring: IMPs

 

You play team match in live, IMP scoring.

 

The system is 2/1.

 

 

Stefan

I want a limit raise in H, so I'll double, and if P says 2H, I'll say 3.

 

Damn, this hand looks good...

 

[hv=s=skqxhaxxxxdxxcxxx]133|100|[/hv]

 

That's about worst possible distribution and points I can expect from partner, and it still makes 4. I think the hand is too strong for 3D.

 

Someday, when I'm even Advanced, I'll know better. :D

[EricK]

Surely 2♠ by a passed hand must be a FNJ.

 

What possible hand can bid 2♠ here without hearts and without an opening bid?

 

Eric

[Gerben47]

2♠ would be a Fit-Non-Jump (FNJ) and 3♠ would NOT be a splinter since oppo's have bid a suit there are no splinters in other suits.

 

2♠ if I think partner understands, otherwise 2NT.

 

Gerben

[luke warm]

agree with last 2 posters... there seem's no possible hand where partner can pass, then bid 2S over my 2H overcall *unless* he has heart support but wouldn't mind a spade lead should they buy it

[skorchev]

2S surely isn't forcing, NS don't play negative doubles!!!

 

And about the FNJ, you play with this partner for first time, and the risk is too high.

 

 

Stefan

[EricK]

2S surely isn't forcing, NS don't play negative doubles!!!

 

And about the FNJ, you play with this partner for first time, and the risk is too high.

 

 

Stefan

But I still can't imagine a hand which can safely bid 2♠ now, couldn't open, and doesn't have a ♥ fit.

 

Eric

[skorchev]

2S surely isn't forcing, NS don't play negative doubles!!!

 

And about the FNJ, you play with this partner for first time, and the risk is too high.

 

 

Stefan

But I still can't imagine a hand which can safely bid 2♠ now, couldn't open, and doesn't have a ♥ fit.

 

Eric

What about

 

♠Axxxxx

♥x

♦xxx

♣Axx

 

or

 

♠AJxxxx

♥x

♦xx

♣QJxx

 

Do you open weak 2s with 2 single Aces or with 6-4?

 

 

Stefan

[luke warm]

with the hands you posted, i open 2S else i pass partner's 2H overcall

 

no, in the sequence shown i'm more convinced than ever that 2S is a fnj... i'd not pass partner there... i might raise spades, show another suit, return to hearts, but not pass.. if pard rebid spades (say after i returned to hearts), then i'd have to admit i was wrong and he really did forget how to preempt

[inquiry]

2♠ by a passed hand as FNJ is extremely useful application of modern bidding therory, but on this hand, I still bid 2NT or 3♦. The Reason? I don't like to make fit jumps (or FNJ) in a suit headed by the ACE only... The ace is useful for partner no matter what (more or less), it is the location of legnth with secondary honors that becomes useful.

 

Ben

[whereagles]

Indeed. Fit-bids and FNJs should show offensive hands. Suits headed by ace alone are neutral, not offensive.

[EricK]

2♠ by a passed hand as FNJ is extremely useful application of modern bidding therory, but on this hand, I still bid 2NT or 3♦. The Reason? I don't like to make fit jumps (or FNJ) in a suit headed by the ACE only... The ace is useful for partner no matter what (more or less), it is the location of legnth with secondary honors that becomes useful.

 

Ben

This is a difficult one, though.

 

Often a FJ or FNJ is mainly to help partner decide whether to sacrifice (or to bid on over their sacrifice). In those cases, secondary honours are useful. But here, aren't we more interested in finding out if we actually have a game?

 

How is partner supposed to know that QJx in spades is like gold?

 

Eric

[paulhar]

How is partner supposed to know that QJx in spades is like gold?

QJx

AQJxx

xx

QJx loses 2D, 1C, probably the spade finesse

 

QJx

QJ10xx

xxx

AQ loses 3D, 1H, down even if the spade finesse wins

 

QJx

AQJ10xx

Qx

xx loses 2D, 1C, probably the spade finesse

 

Clearly, S-QJx is better than C-QJx, but gold?

 

Fool's gold? :)

[EricK]

How is partner supposed to know that QJx in spades is like gold?

QJx

AQJxx

xx

QJx loses 2D, 1C, probably the spade finesse

 

QJx

QJ10xx

xxx

AQ loses 3D, 1H, down even if the spade finesse wins

 

QJx

AQJ10xx

Qx

xx loses 2D, 1C, probably the spade finesse

 

Clearly, S-QJx is better than C-QJx, but gold?

 

Fool's gold? :)

I am not saying that QJx is enough for game, but if you don't tell partner what cards are useful he will just be guessing, and you will miss a lot of games which are there.

 

Note also that partner has made a non-jump overcall of the cheapest possible suit opposite a passed partner. I expect him to have quite a strong hand. I really ought to look for game with an eight loser hand and a 9+ card fit.

 

Eric

[skorchev]

OK, let me give you the game. I was North and my bid was very stupid and nobody of you voted for it. :P

 

I bid 3♥(I know that it isn't a good bid, pls don't post how stuped am I :) ). But after my stupid bid I got the right game. :)

 

The bidding:

 

----- P 1♦ 1♥

2♦ 3♥ 4♦ P

P 4♥ All pass

 

When they said 4♦ and I see again my hand I understood how stupid is my bid (3♥) and I bid 4♥ with the idea that they have 130 and if we go down with double they will write 100 and +1 IMP for us. :)

But they didn't double(!). My partner played very fast, it seems the game was easy and he MADE!

 

------------------♠A109xx

------------------♥Kxxx

------------------♦109x

------------------♣K

♠Qxx-------------------------♠Kx

♥Q10-------------------------♥xx

♦KJxxx-----------------------♦AQxx

♣xxx--------------------------♣AJxxx

------------------♠Jxx

------------------♥AJxxx

------------------♦x

------------------♣Q10xx

 

*-* = *space*

 

I suppose that if I bid something else I never would got this game, because they never would bid 4♦. The once way to get this game is if I bid 2♠-FNJ (but I never would, because we didn't comment this situation) and my partner should bid very aggressive to get 4♥.

 

However we won the 8-board match with 44 IMPs! :D

 

Tnx to everyone who comment and vote this post. :D

 

 

Stefan

[Fluffy]

I´ve voted 3♦ because didn´t even read about the explanation of 2NT.

 

When the bidding is competitive its better to use a bid that describes your hand fully, that is, you don´t need any extra bid because you have given already most of the info you want.

 

If it is the first time you paly with him stefan, were you that sure than 2NT would be with support?.

 

Jimmy asked aboit the meaning of 3♠, and I think it is a clear major 2-suiter, the problem is you may be not strong enough for it.

[skorchev]

I´ve voted 3♦ because didn´t even read about the explanation of 2NT.

 

When the bidding is competitive its better to use a bid that describes your hand fully, that is, you don´t need any extra bid because you have given already most of the info you want.

 

If it is the first time you paly with him stefan, were you that sure than 2NT would be with support?.

 

Jimmy asked aboit the meaning of 3♠, and I think it is a clear major 2-suiter, the problem is you may be not strong enough for it.

2NT surely is with fit and game invite, it's most popular in Bulgaria. 3♠ need serious agreement to be used, but as you said the hand isn't so strong to bid 3♠ never mind what it means.

 

 

Stefan

[han]

Whether 2S should be a FNJ or natural depends a bit on your style of opening weak 2's. My agreement with my regular partner's is that a non-jump bid in a new suit at the 2-level is natural, but at the 3-level or higher it is a FNJ. This may not be optimal, but at least we know what we are playing.

 

I think that this hand is not good enough to force to game, so I wouldn't bid 3S. I would need something like AQJxx Kxxx xxx x or even AJ10xx Kxxxx xx x. I would bid 2S if available, else 2NT.

[Free]

Easy 2NT imo

[luke warm]

Whether 2S should be a FNJ or natural depends a bit on your style of opening weak 2's. My agreement with my regular partner's is that a non-jump bid in a new suit at the 2-level is natural, but at the 3-level or higher it is a FNJ. This may not be optimal, but at least we know what we are playing.

 

I think that this hand is not good enough to force to game, so I wouldn't bid 3S. I would need something like AQJxx Kxxx xxx x or even AJ10xx Kxxxx xx x. I would bid 2S if available, else 2NT.

i pretty much agree with this, hannie, except when the 2 level bid "preempts" partner's overcall (given that i'm a passed hand)... it seems to me that i should have a strong tolerance, at least, for pard's suit else i should suppress mine

 

when it comes down to it, if i'm strong nuff to bid a suit at the 2 level that's higher ranked than pard's overcall, i was surely strong enough to open ... fluffy thinks (as did you) the hand isn't quite strong enough for a 3S bid, and his judgments are usually right... others have said the 2S as a fnj isn't correct because of the A nothing, and they also have a good point.. i'd still do it, because i'm not sure who will buy the hand and i want partner to be better able to judge

[flytoox]

4C splinter, else 4H, dont mess around with 2S or whatever.

[han]

Whether 2S should be a FNJ or natural depends a bit on your style of opening weak 2's. My agreement with my regular partner's is that a non-jump bid in a new suit at the 2-level is natural, but at the 3-level or higher it is a FNJ. This may not be optimal, but at least we know what we are playing.

i pretty much agree with this, hannie, except when the 2 level bid "preempts" partner's overcall (given that i'm a passed hand)... it seems to me that i should have a strong tolerance, at least, for pard's suit else i should suppress mine

OK, you have convinced me. I will suggest to my partners that my bid in a new suit above their suit at the two level also implies a fit. However, could it be an invitational hand with 3-card support, or even Hx in their suit?

 

To play that 2S shows 4-card support sure works well here, but I doubt that it's best.

 

Of course, I would never bid 2S with a pick-up partner (but I must say I find the question far more interesting with a regular partner. If you have no idea how partner is going to interpret your bid, you might as well bid 4H, yuck!).

[luke warm]

~snip~However, could it be an invitational hand with 3-card support, or even Hx in their suit?

 

To play that 2S shows 4-card support sure works well here, but I doubt that it's best.~snip~

i think you can play it any way you want, but to me it depends on the strength of the hand... with the hand given, i'd bid 2S with 3 card support (tho 4 sure is nice)... i'm less certain of Hx... i'd be more tempted to pass or raise (especially if pard's overcall was at the 2 level)

 

added by edit: btw hannie, on the 3 card support question... i think it depends more on whether the hand is more offensive than defensive... reason is, you have a cue bid to show a defensive hand with 3 card support... you also have 2NT to show a defensive type hand with Hx (but i think you'd have to be max for your original pass, especially without some kind of fit for partner)