The Minor 4-5

[mtvesuvius]

I played at the club today with a friend, we had some very fun hands, and a few bad ones as well, the highlight being us collecting 800 against 4♣ undoubled. On the car ride back, partner asked me a style question which I know has varied in popularity throughout the years. So, I figured I'd make a poll and see what the consensus is now. When holding a minimum strength 4-5 in the minors, what do you generally open? I have always preferred 1D unless planning on rebidding 1N, but have been told other methods are better by people who I consider to be significantly better than myself. Thoughts?

 

This is in a standardish 2/1 or SAYC context.

[manudude03]

I guess my reply is "Other". I would generally open 1C, unless the thought of rebidding them sickens me, AND I might not be able to bid NT (i.e pretty good diamond suit to have an opening hand), something like xx Qx AKJx Q9xxx would get opened 1D, AT Kx QTxx AJTxx and AT KJ QTxx KJxxx get opened 1C. (13)45s are virtually always opened 1C (happy to rebid 1NT with a stiff). With (04)45, it goes back to as if it was 2245 (except I'm never bidding NT).

 

Before any of the 1D always camp LOLs at me, I just don't think it's worth the stress of trying to work out which minor is longer when you could potentially be 6-4 either way (only 4-6 in extreme circumstances of course, AQx void AKJx 765432?) and the downtimes outweigh the times you may have a real problem if you do have a reverse hand and have to respond to partner's negative double.

[wank]

having played precision and having had to open these 4-5 hands 1♦ i'm always shocked that someone would choose to pervert their hand in this way voluntarily.

 

i don't see the argument - they say they can show 8.5 cards in 2 bids. i don't have in trouble getting my diamonds in on the 3rd round when required bidding the normal way.

[Phil]

There's been lots of discussion on here about 4-5's and you will find most prefer opening 1♣ except in unusual circumstances.

[the hog]

I played at the club today with a friend, we had some very fun hands, and a few bad ones as well, the highlight being us collecting 800 against 4♣ undoubled. On the car ride back, partner asked me a style question which I know has varied in popularity throughout the years. So, I figured I'd make a poll and see what the consensus is now. When holding 4-5 in the minors, what do you generally open? I have always preferred 1D unless planning on rebidding 1N, but have been told other methods are better by people who I consider to be significantly better than myself. Thoughts?

 

This is in a standardish 2/1 or SAYC context.

 

Surely this depends on the strength of your hand. I would open 1C if I had the values to reverse; otherwise I would open 1D and rebid 2C.

[JLOGIC]

1C almost always

[Fluffy]

I opened 1♦ with most 3145 and 1345 for a while and I enjoied it, but results were a bit random for my taste.

 

Now I take a look at suit quality, with ♣KQ10xx I will open 1♣ even with 1345 because I am not afraid of rebidding 2♣. But with ♣Kxxxx I would open 1♦.

 

With any 2245 I will open 1♣ and rebid 1NT

[jschafer]

1♣

[gwnn]

sorry I wanted to vote for 1♣ (almost) always but I accidentally clicked on 1♣ if 2245

[pooltuna]

Generally I will open 1♦ unless there is great disparity between suit strength

[dake50]

1C always.

 

With both minors in a minimum opening,

I'm never advertising to opponents

they have majors with half +/- the deck.

Let my rebid be 1NT ambiguous.

Get to 17+ and I look to reverse 2D.

[awm]

1♣ always for me, happy to rebid 1NT if partner bids my singleton at the one-level.

[Free]

This is what I play at the moment in a naturalish partnership:

- With 16+HCP I usually open 1♣.

- With 11-15HCP I pretty much always open 1♦ (only exception here is 3rd seat with 5 good ♣s).

- With 15-17HCP with values in both doubletons I prefer 1NT.

 

Personally I prefer to open the longest suit. However, this treatment makes the auction easiers in some cases, especially after 1♣ openings (you have the 2♦ rebid free for strong hands). The only situation where you lose is when you actually hold both minors and partner doesn't know which one is the longest. Luckily this is rare enough.

[dboxley]

Obviously it depends on the hand. Either 1♣, 1♦, 1NT, 2NT...................

[mycroft]

For those who rebid 1NT with (13)4=5s - does partner feel uncomfortable with eir decision with a 5cM and a singleton? Do you feel you *always* have to raise with 3 card support - even with, say 4333s?

 

Knowing partner has 2 cards in my suit, so I can play the potentially 8-card fit if I think it's right, guaranteed not 6-card, is really comforting; for me it's worth the compromise of 1D on 4=5 minimums without great clubs. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I want to know what compromises I'm going to be making to allow it.

[Fluffy]

For those who rebid 1NT with (13)4=5s - does partner feel uncomfortable with eir decision with a 5cM and a singleton? Do you feel you *always* have to raise with 3 card support - even with, say 4333s?

 

Knowing partner has 2 cards in my suit, so I can play the potentially 8-card fit if I think it's right, guaranteed not 6-card, is really comforting; for me it's worth the compromise of 1D on 4=5 minimums without great clubs. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I want to know what compromises I'm going to be making to allow it.

I am with you, I autobid 2M with 5 cards 5-9 HCP over 1NT and feel very good about it. I never raise on 3 cards though, but I might rebid 1NT over 1♠ with 3145 so that we don't lose the 5-3 fit.

 

I can still remember my dad yelling when I once rebid 1NT with ♠K♥AQ8♦K532♣Q7543 and he played 2 spades with ♠J9532 :)

[gnasher]

For those who rebid 1NT with (13)4=5s - does partner feel uncomfortable with eir decision with a 5cM and a singleton? Do you feel you *always* have to raise with 3 card support - even with, say 4333s?

 

Knowing partner has 2 cards in my suit, so I can play the potentially 8-card fit if I think it's right, guaranteed not 6-card, is really comforting; for me it's worth the compromise of 1D on 4=5 minimums without great clubs. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I want to know what compromises I'm going to be making to allow it.

 

I think the way to cope with this is for responder to go on bidding as though he's opposite 2-3 cards, and just live with playing in a 5-1 fit from time to time. Sometimes the 5-1 fit plays OK anyway.

 

An alternative, which I'm quite happy with but makes many people nauseous, is for opener to rebid 2C instead of 1NT.

[awm]

For those who rebid 1NT with (13)4=5s - does partner feel uncomfortable with eir decision with a 5cM and a singleton? Do you feel you *always* have to raise with 3 card support - even with, say 4333s?

 

Knowing partner has 2 cards in my suit, so I can play the potentially 8-card fit if I think it's right, guaranteed not 6-card, is really comforting; for me it's worth the compromise of 1D on 4=5 minimums without great clubs. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I want to know what compromises I'm going to be making to allow it.

 

We don't rebid 2M on lousy five-card suits in this auction. Sure, we occasionally play in the "wrong" partial, missing a 5-3 major fit. But people who do rebid 2M on lousy five-card suits (even if their 1NT rebid promises two card support) will also sometimes play the "wrong" partial by correcting 1NT to a 5-2 fit with a weak trump suit. People who bid 1♦...2♣ on 4-5 will quite often play the "wrong" partial on these hands, even when responder has an invite, because responder will not know where the 5-3 minor fit (if any) lies. You can't really get all the partscore auctions right, but given that I'm going to be guessing a little on the partscore hands no matter what, I'd rather bid to 1NT more often than less (1NT is very hard to defend and I get a lot of helpful leads against it, and people often guess wrong about whether to balance against 1NT too).

 

We do raise on three-card support sometimes with balanced hands... but not usually with 4333s.

[straube]

1D-1M, 2C is like a reverse in that you can hold up to 18 or so points (i.e. just shy of a 3C GF rebid). There is a lot of pressure on responder to give opener another chance to show extra values and responder needs to be able to take a false preference to 2D when he might accept a game try.

 

For instance....

 

A Axx AKxxx Qxxx opposite KJxxx Qxx Qx Jxx

 

Taking that false preference would not be viable if partner were allowed to have 4D/5C.

 

This sequence is quite similar to the 5-cd major auctions that go 1M-1N, 2m-2M which also allow opener to take a third bid. Without the anchor suit, opener will infrequently get this chance.

[y66]

fyi -- Here are some add'l comments from Steve Robinson's peanut gallery.

[rhm]

deleted

[Free]

For those who rebid 1NT with (13)4=5s - does partner feel uncomfortable with eir decision with a 5cM and a singleton? Do you feel you *always* have to raise with 3 card support - even with, say 4333s?

 

Knowing partner has 2 cards in my suit, so I can play the potentially 8-card fit if I think it's right, guaranteed not 6-card, is really comforting; for me it's worth the compromise of 1D on 4=5 minimums without great clubs. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I want to know what compromises I'm going to be making to allow it.

What do you bid after 1m-1♠ with a 1-4-4-4?

[rhm]

For those who rebid 1NT with (13)4=5s - does partner feel uncomfortable with eir decision with a 5cM and a singleton? Do you feel you *always* have to raise with 3 card support - even with, say 4333s?

 

Knowing partner has 2 cards in my suit, so I can play the potentially 8-card fit if I think it's right, guaranteed not 6-card, is really comforting; for me it's worth the compromise of 1D on 4=5 minimums without great clubs. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I want to know what compromises I'm going to be making to allow it.

 

Why should partner feel uncomfortable when I rebid 1NT with a singleton ♠ and why should he feel better if I had bid 2♣ instead with a singleton ♠?

As usual what really matters is whether you and your partner are on the same wavelength and partner knows you might have a singleton ♠.

I never understood why 1NT, the cheapest and most desirable rebid over partner 1♠ response, should be so restrictive with regard to distribution.

 

I rebid 1NT with a singleton ♠ over 1♠, but not with a singleton ♥ over 1♥, irrespective whether I opened 1♣ or 1♦. I will raise a major with 3 cards if I have a small doubleton or less in an unbid suit. I rarely miss 5-3 major fits and when I do, this does not mean I get a bad board in 1NT. Partner rarely takes out 1NT into a 5 card ♠ suit. One big advantage of this is that you almost never loose your ♥ fit, when responder has 5♠s and 4 or 5 ♥s, which is a serious problem when opener bids 1♦ followed by 2♣. Another is I will almost never rebid a 5 card minor and if I do rebid a minor I will almost never hold 3 card support for partner's major.

With 3♠=1♥=4♦=5♣ I will bid 1♠ over 1♥, since 1NT promises at least 2 cards in ♥s. We do not care for this specific distribution and always assume opener has 4 cards in ♠ when he rebids 1♠ over 1♥. However when it came up the results were quite satisfactory. Responder can employ XYZ over this sequence to find out.

 

Just about the only distribution where, playing "standard" I would open 1♦ is a minimum 0♠=4♥=4♦=5♣.

 

With regard to responder holding a six card ♠ suit and hears a 1NT response, he simply needs to be aware of that opener might have a singleton ♠. Because of that responder needs a little bit more to force to game.

 

I play XYZ, which is another good reason to make the 1NT rebid more frequent. By this convention you can define invitational and game forcing hands much better over a 1NT rebid than after opener's rebid of two of a minor.

 

If partner, holding a six card ♠ suit, is weak, no problem he rebids 2♠ regardless.

If invitational, he bids 2♣ getting a 2♦ response (which always denies 3 cards in partner's major the way I play) and responder will usually rebid 2♠, which opener will pass with a singleton. (With 10-11 HCP responder might bid 2NT or 3♠ instead, depending on ♠ suit quality and distribution)

If game forcing, responder will bid 2♦, opener rebids 3♦, showing 5♣s and 4♦s and over 3♠ opener will usually bid 3NT. (If opener's minors are reversed he opens 1♦ and will rebid 3♣ if responders rebid is 2♦

If opener is 1♠=4♥=4♦=4♣ we open 1♦, rebid 1NT over 1♠, and will bid 2♥ over 2♦(XYZ). If partner shows a 6 card ♠ with 2♠, we bid 3♣, showing exactly this distribution and 3♦ would show 1♠=4♥=5♦=3♣.

 

This structure has served me well over the years

 

Rainer Herrmann

[mycroft]

I would like to specifically mention my thanks to all who took my question as the serious one it was, rather than the rhetorical "there's no good answer to this, so I win" it might have sounded.

 

I have a lot to think about. It may not change my mind (and even if it does, given where I play and who I play with, it may not change how I play), but I certainly have a lot more vision of the problem than I did a week ago.

 

Thanks again.

[gszeszycki]

THINK REBID AND/OR LEAD DIRECTION

 

that mantra will go a long way to helping you decide how to open a 2245 hand. Lets start with

3 examples and remember that there is no such thing as 1 size fits all.

 

A3

32

AKQx

AQ432

 

here is a wonderful 19 count (which some will make a case for upgrading to a 2n opener)

opening 1c here and planning a 2d reverse is a wonderful method for treating this hand.

I hate the idea of bidding some number of nt with this hand due to the very short and

very wide open heart suit. Opening 1c (vs 2n) might allow us to reach 5c or 5d vs a 2n/3n

that is doomed to failure.

 

AQ

AQ

Qxxx

xxxxx

 

here I would HATE to encourage p to raise either of these moth eaten minors so I would start

with 1c and be very very VERY happy to rebid 1n (even if p bids 1d)

 

Qx

Qx

AKQJ

xxxxx

 

such a huge quality difference btn clubs and diamonds I am inclined to treat my clubs as a

4 card suit, open 1d and rebid 1n.

 

The final example not only answers the rebid question but also lead direction. The other side benfit

of opening 1d is it will allow p (with a short dia) to more accurately assess the value of their short

suit (ie downgrade it)

 

My general rule of thumb is if my dia contain at least 4 hcp and at least twice the strength of my clubs

I will open 1d (unless the hand is strong enough to reverse).

 

Thus with more mundane hands like

 

K2

A2

A432

Q5432

 

I will open 1d planning to rebid 1n.

 

Scoring in bridge makes showing 54/45 in minors a very poor idea most of the time. NT scores better and can be made

with significantly less power than 5 of a minor.

 

xx

xx

AKQx

AJxxx

 

the 2 wide open and short majors convinces me to open a minor and even though the dia suit isnt quite

twice the strength of the clubs---my hand is too weak to reverse---I will open 1d and plan on rebidding 2c.

The upside of this method is it virtually guarantees P will be declarer if NT is right.